International educational options beyond the MBA

I am Raghu, i am an Engineering graduate(2010 Batch) working as a Pre-Sales Engineer in a Small Private Company in Bangalore for the past 6 Months. I am an MBA aspirant and looking forward to give GMAT this year. But honestly i have very little idea on what i really want......I have interest in Sports Management but after talking to a few Indians who have opted for the course, I did not get a positive feedback for the same. I am also keen on going into Finance , Event management in the entertainment section , but again i am ready learn but currently i have no knowledge on any of them.
The only reason i am rushing for an MBA is because many people have told me that even after an MBA if one wants a career change then they have to start from scrach. Also i am eager to achieve something as soon as possible rather than working in a job for 4 years and then trying for something.
I understand that many of my statements may be ambiguous but i have tried to focus light on my thoughts. Kindly guide me as to how do i get into a good college? Which course would give a boost to my career?
Is it wise to go for an MBA with such low working experience?
Thankshttp://cdn.pagalguy.net/pagalguy/smilies/new_alien.gif


The first good thing is you're honest about not knowing what you really want. Unfortunately, only father time (specifically the next 4-5 years) will help with that. Your readiness to learn is admirable, but you need to match that willingness with patience, discipline and diligence.

If you're rushing into an MBA "now" (with less than 2 years), the education is unlikely to add any professional or notional value to your profile - and you're likely to have to start from scratch... This is because you probably will not have the skills - valuable, applicable and (most critically) transferable to a job after the MBA, which is 75% of why an employer will hire you for a role that requires some experience & skills. The MBA (or any other relevant education) is the 25% that complements / broadens existing skills & expertise in 1/2 functional areas.

Unlike many others, you have the opportunity as a Pre-Sales engineer to do a core function in your company - involving both using / improving technical knowledge of the product / service you sell + intense interaction with clients. Pre-sales would also involve discussions around costing (internally with your colleagues in finance), pricing & positioning (with your marketing colleagues). This is experience worth gaining at a young age as it will shape your skills & expertise in the area of client interaction. Work on this for 2-3 years and gain some base skills. While on the job, undertake other activities that will help you improve your profile (learn a foreign language to intermediate fluency) and explore your interests in the area of entertainment & finance through targeted professional or social interaction. If in finance, try and network with your finance colleagues and ask them to involve you in client specific projects. There's a lot you can do.

In my opinion, many people are giving you wrong advice around MBA & careers after. You don't have to start from scratch if you bring 5 years of solid functional expertise behind you that can be transferred to a different function or industry. E.g - 5 years of solid pre-sales / sales / marketing experience, along with the customer access, positioning knowledge and skills that come with it - position you for consulting, strategy or corporate marketing roles. You start one level short of manager out there (or perhaps manager level if your skills are good enough for that). Hardly starting from scratch.... The critical element is what skills you can offer a future employer and where & how they can apply those skills in the job & in their business.... With less than 2 years, you have nothing to offer, you'll find it difficult in a competitive environment abroad and you'll have to start from scratch if you're fortunate enough to find a job....

To answer your question - it is not advisable to go for an MBA abroad with such low experience. If you're in a rush, prepare for & give the CAT and get into a good b-school in India (you know the ones). No course abroad will boost your career now, it's just not likely because you don't have the skills / experience / expertise to offer anything to your future employer at this time.... Work for 5 years, learn, up-skill, achieve...then go for the right MBA / similar education.

All the best
Baccardisprite
Probably,after 4 years from then,i will plan for an Executive MBA in finance.During these 4 years, i will try to do some foundation courses in finance inorder to be ready for my MBA.

I went through most of your posts in " International educational options beyond the MBA".I got some inputs regarding supply chain & operations but i wanted some more information regarding courses in Purchase.My idea of a supplychain/Purchase/Operations course is Strategic sourcing,Negotiation skill building,risk management analysis of suppliers & in supply chain, technology in the field of purchase(building specific applications in purchase),Case studies in purchase & in supply chain,Inventory management,Cost Control,Operations management(one or two courses related to this field),Six sigma,process improvement,quality initiatives from a supply chain perspective.

I went through some of the institues mentioned in your posts.However these Universities(Stanford & other top universities) don't offer any specialized courses.

I will be benefitted if you can throw some advise to the following points mentioned below

1) Any good universities in US offering specific course in purchase or mostly oriented towards purchase field?
2) Any good universities in UK & Europe offering specific course in purchase or mostly oriented towards purchase field?
3) What would be the course fee in US for one year?
5) I always wanted to do my higher studies from US.Which one do you think would be good interms of quality education - US or Europe?
6) I will be 31 years by July 2011.Do you think this course would be right at this age?What would be the average age of students for such courses?
7) How about career prospects after education?
Iam not looking for top universities as iam not sure whether i will fit into that crowd.Iam looking for universities where i would feel comfortable.For me feeling comfortable is more important inorder to do well.Hence,suggest me some good schools & not the great ones.
9) Do all these schools demand for GMAT?I have not given my GMAT still.Is it ok to apply for those universities which doesn't ask for GMAT.(I have a TOEFL score of 95 in the IBT version).Iam planning for Sept 2011.
10) I just tried,just to understand,in some UK Universities.Westminster University,London Metropolitan,Aberdeen business school,Norwich business school for their Masters program in Purchase & Supply chain.Fortunately all these universities gave an offer.But iam not too sure of their credibility.Would you mind giving some inputs here?

This is all that i could think for now.After receiving your advise,i guess more questions will crop up.I will post them in the next one to get those doubts clarified. Thankyou in advance for your help. Regards. Raghuram


First thanks for the positive feedback. I do my best, and am happy when posters feel my advice helps.

1 & 2) With close to 10 years, you certainly have something to offer in terms of skills, experience and achievement. Also admirable is your passion for the field and the desire to achieve mastery at it. So I advise you to not compromise in reaching for the stars and going for education that helps you complement / deepen your skills in the field of operations (which includes SC, Sourcing, Ops finance, controlling etc..), while offering you a broad overview of business. Look at some of the programs suggested below. The more specialist programs in this area are generally Masters in Operations, SCM &/or Supply Chain Management.

I don't know of any university that offers a specialist Master's degree in the field of purchasing & strategic sourcing. There're some French technical schools / business schools offering specialist degrees, but these are not particularly valuable as they cater to a younger audience and for the French job market.

The best US Schools that will offer the strongest & broadest possible programs in this area are the Universities housing strong departments in the field of Industrial Engineering, Operations Research & Management. Look at the US News & World Report Rankings. Then go to each of these universities, contact them in person if you have to and ask them about the programs that they offer. Also take a look at the LGO Program at MIT, exactly the kind of program you're looking for - an MBA + M.S in Engineering. You could choose your Engineering Track with MIT's Engineering Systems Division (MIT Engineering Systems Division), and go for the M.S with the specialization in Manufacturing Systems & Supply Chains (where your focus area would be Strategic Sourcing).

If you still want to stay totally within the function - then have a look at getting a professional qualification as well - like the Chartered Institute of Purchasing & Supply (Home Page - The Chartered Institute of Purchasing and Supply).

Programs in the UK (e.g Cranfield's M.Sc in Logistics & SCM) cater to an audience much younger than yourself, I wouldn't recommend it for you.

For more dedicated six-sigma & process enigneering training, suggest you go with company sponsored programs as these tend to be more professionally inclined, which is what you need versus all of this in an academic setting.

3) Check the websites of each school to get course fee information. This is research you should do yourself.

5)Would suggest the US (full time education) + CIPS (taken part-time) for you

6) I don't think 31 is too old, particularly if you're studying in the US. You can check individual program profiles to see the average age. Again, widely available information, which you need to make the simple effort to find.

7) Depends on what you can bring to an employer and if you can fit well with whatever role they have open. Note that pplacements is a very different concept abroad than it is in India. As most top b-schools in India "advertise" placements, many attendees to programs in India are misguided into thinking the school is "responsible" for getting students placed. Abroad, the student is responsible for searching for a job with the facilities, access to recruiters and the job-search training that's provided by a career services office (very different concept to a placement cell). Operations, SC & Strategic Purchasing skills are and will continue to be in demand. Be confident, network well and you should succeed.

you can go to a top university and feel comfortable.

9) If a school says GMAT not required, stay away. It's not good enough.

10) Not very well known. If you know a mediocre university in India isn't likely to add much value to your career in India, what makes anyone think that mediocre universities abroad add much value to careers in those locations???? Think carefully - go for the best you can.

All the best
Baccardisprite

Hi Baccardisprite,

That is the best piece of advice i have got till now.

I will work on the pointers stated by you.

Thank you very much.

Raghu

Hi Bacardisprite..!!

This is Suresh.I am planning to go for PG diploma in Business management in Centinnial,CANADA.Coul you please suggest me whether is it good or nt?.Please find my profile and suggest.

Education: M.Sc in Bitoechnology
Work: 2.6 years in IT industry

I am planning to give IELTS and apply for September intake.Is it worth persuing PGDM in CENTINNIAL and what about the job opportunities after my education.

Regards,
Suresh

Hi Bacardisprite..!! This is Suresh.I am planning to go for PG diploma in Business management in Centinnial, CANADA.Coul you please suggest me whether is it good or nt?.Please find my profile and suggest.

Education: M.Sc in Bitoechnology
Work: 2.6 years in IT industry

I am planning to give IELTS and apply for September intake.Is it worth persuing PGDM in CENTINNIAL and what about the job opportunities after my education. Regards, Suresh


Never heard of the program, nor of the university. Why are you planning to go here? What's driving you to this program versus another school / program? Can you please provide some more insight into your career goals & and the ground-work you did to get to the potential choice of Centinnial as a place to educate yourself for the career you seek?

3 questions I ask from everyone:

- What do you want to do (functionally) over the short & longer term?
- What kind of company / industry would you like to work in?
- Where (geography) would you like to work short & long term?

Think and post again... with what you have provided, I don't feel capable of advising you valuably.

Cheerz
Hari

Thankyou Hari for the valuable advise.

I came across a program in University of Cincinnati - Certification program in operational excellence.I heard its a good university.

What is your take on this School?

Cheers
Raghuram

Hi

I am working in a reputed manufacturing firm and have 2 yrs of exp. I have done my Btech in Mechanical Engg and my CGPA is arnd 8. I would like to know the details about MIT LGO program like how much is the avg wrk ex , what are the job prospects , and do v need to give GRE or Gmat.

Thanks .

Thankyou Hari for the valuable advise
I came across a program in University of Cincinnati - Certification program in operational excellence.I heard its a good university. What is your take on this School? Cheers Raghuram


Hi again, University is known, but the program really isn't - and it doesn't appear to be a degree program. Wouldn't recommend (unless you're being sponsored by your employer for a purpose). Would recommend going for a full on degree in Industrial Engineering / Operations. If cost is an issue - please do try the National Institute of Industrial Engineering (www.nitie.edu), this is India's best school of Operations Management.

All the best
Baccardisprite
rkn Says
Hi I am working in a reputed manufacturing firm and have 2 yrs of exp. I have done my Btech in Mechanical Engg and my CGPA is arnd 8. I would like to know the details about MIT LGO program like how much is the avg wrk ex , what are the job prospects , and do v need to give GRE or Gmat. Thanks .


Hi there, I really don't want to sound unhelpful - however, the information you ask for is available on the program website Global Operations Management MBA | MIT. Please have a look, as the quality of answers there is excellent.

All the best
Baccardisprite

Hi Hari,

I read many of your posts.. and would like to thank you for such insights. I would like to seek your genuine suggestions on my career choice. I am a B.Tech - Computer Science (from a private college in roorkee) 2008 Batch. Got placed with Satyam in 3rd year but the company sank before I could join and thus I worked with small start up firm in Noida (and started preparing for govt jobs). Got a call from Mahindra Satyam in 2010 and worked there for about 7 months and then got the joining letter from State Bank of Hyderabad as a PO (Asst. Manager). Currently, I am working as an Asst Mgr in SBH. Its been 6 months since I joined the bank.

My problem is that I am not satisfied with my career progression. I want to earn a master degree (preferably MBA) from a top institute to fast track from career and take up a senior position in a company that gives me rich lifestyle and satisfaction. IIMs recently changed their criteria and thus IIM-A, XLRI etc are not within my reach (my % in X,XII, Btech - 81, 75, 75). So, I am targetting Univ abroad as I am sure I would be able to get a good GMAT score. My bank PO prep will help me in preparing better for GMAT. Another thing is - finance. I do not have any financial backing. My extra curricular is poor and I have avg. academic performance. If I get a decent GMAT (my target - above 700) what do u think are my chances of getting scholarships? I am 26 right now.. and would be getting married in 3-4 yrs.. so I need to consider my expenses (post marriage) and my earnings. In that case repaying a loan.. can be difficult. what are my options? how about doing master in finance from a very good univ abroad? i want to stick with finance/banking field.. and my proff exp in banking may be helpful in getting admission. Please suggest.

I am a B.Tech - Computer Science (from a private college in roorkee) 2008 Batch. Got placed with Satyam in 3rd year but the company sank before I could join and thus I worked with small start up firm in Noida (and started preparing for govt jobs). Got a call from Mahindra Satyam in 2010 and worked there for about 7 months and then got the joining letter from State Bank of Hyderabad as a PO (Asst. Manager). Currently, I am working as an Asst Mgr in SBH. Its been 6 months since I joined the bank.

My problem is that I am not satisfied with my career progression. I want to earn a master degree (preferably MBA) from a top institute to fast track from career and take up a senior position in a company that gives me rich lifestyle and satisfaction. IIMs recently changed their criteria and thus IIM-A, XLRI etc are not within my reach (my % in X,XII, Btech - 81, 75, 75). So, I am targetting Univ abroad as I am sure I would be able to get a good GMAT score. My bank PO prep will help me in preparing better for GMAT. Another thing is - finance. I do not have any financial backing. My extra curricular is poor and I have avg. academic performance. If I get a decent GMAT (my target - above 700) what do u think are my chances of getting scholarships? I am 26 right now.. and would be getting married in 3-4 yrs.. so I need to consider my expenses (post marriage) and my earnings. In that case repaying a loan.. can be difficult. what are my options? how about doing master in finance from a very good univ abroad? i want to stick with finance/banking field.. and my proff exp in banking may be helpful in getting admission. Please suggest.


Firstly - it's good to see the ambition come through in your post. Secondly - I am also glad to see you went with a plan B when Satyam sank (the start-up) and were willing to work towards getting your career back on track. Please feel encouraged by your progress thus far.

At the same time, please don't rush with your career. The biggest reason for this is that your overall experience is still unfortunately a bit thin. I suggest you still work in SBH over the next 3-4 years, learn the ropes over the next 3 years, achieve some success and progress (granted, probably not as fast as what you would see in a private bank). In this period, please attempt the CFA to bulk up your professional credentials in the field of finance. Aim to pass at least 2 levels before you enter a Master's program.

In about 3 years, apply for a specialist M.Sc in Finance in a good UK or US university and take your career from there. At this time, simply going abroad (possible) and studying now will mean you don't have much tangible experience / skills to offer your future employer. Please also note that the Finance / Banking industry in the west is yet to recover fully from the troubles of 2007-2009, and most people who get first crack at jobs would be locals + those who lost their jobs in the 2007-2009 period. It will take some years for things to come back to normal. If money / salary / progress are the issue, please try making the change to a private bank in a capacity similar to what you have today.

On the way, try and learn a foreign language up to at least intermediate fluency (meaning - capable of carrying out a business conversation) - one German, French, Spanish, Chinese, Japanese would be useful skills to have depending on where you would like to work geographically after your Masters.

Please look at some of my older posts where I have articulated the 75% of the reasons why employers would hire you (your skills & experience) while your university / education would make up only the remaining 25%. Though you should target the best universities for the best 25%.

Secondly - please don't let the prospect of marriage interfere with your goals and objectives. There are many like yourself who go and do programs abroad while married (some with children). I did my MBA while married, and my biggest strength was & still is a supportive spouse!

Overall - build a career, then think of the education that will help accelarate the career upward. The age between 21-30 is where the base skills are developed and wll be useful all one's life.

All the best
Baccardisprite
Hi All,

I am trying for this Masters programme from UNIGE ( Geneva). As per University guidelines, the aspirants should be looking for the parallel Job by themselves.

Could the existing students/ aspirants share their experience and provide pointers for trading companies in Geneva? This will really help in progressing my case.


Thanks
Nilesh

Hi All,

I am trying for this Masters programme from UNIGE ( Geneva). As per University guidelines, the aspirants should be looking for the parallel Job by themselves.

Could the existing students/ aspirants share their experience and provide pointers for trading companies in Geneva? This will really help in progressing my case.


Thanks
Nilesh

Hi All,

I am trying for this Masters programme from UNIGE ( Geneva). As per University guidelines, the aspirants should be looking for the parallel Job by themselves. Could the existing students/ aspirants share their experience and provide pointers for trading companies in Geneva? This will really help in progressing my case.

Thanks
Nilesh


Which Masters Program are you referring to? There's neither a link nor a reference in your post. UNIGE is one of Switzerland's Top Science & Arts universities (alongside University of St.Gallen & U. Zurich), but hopefully whatever program you're choosing is in line with your career aspirations.

Geneva is home to several trading companies particularly commodities and energy (Cargill's European operations are in Geneva). Be a little more specific please, trading in what?

All the best
Baccardisprite

It is MA(International Trading , Commodity Finance & Shipping) - University of Geneva...


Regards

Nilesh Gupta

nilgupta82 Says
It is MA(International Trading , Commodity Finance & Shipping) - University of Geneva...Regards Nilesh Gupta


Ok. If your career interests lie in the area, and you bring some professional experience in the field to the game (3-4 years in finance, banking, investment management &/or investment analytics) - you'll have some tangible skills to be attractive to a future employer, complemented with your education.

Commodities & other trading jobs tend to be quite quantitative, so having a professional qualification in finance is an indication of a level of competence. Would recommend completing at least 2 levels of the CFA before attending the program. The location is certainly favorable. What would help you more is intermediate fluency in French, as it would open doors in a wider variety of trading operations.

Please also ask the school to provide you with names of program alumni with whom you can speak about the educational and job-search elements. While UNIGE is a good university, its career services department is probably a bit of an unknown, so there's a good chance you'll need to network furiously to have doors opened for you to at least interview with companies and trading outfits. The statement around parallel job-search means that UNIGE's career department is probably weak - it means very little resources to organize placement / networking activity for the students, and little competence in career related training (CV writing, Job search off campus, communication etc).

It's not a statement on the quality of the education, just that you'll need to do most of the hustling yourself - contact / meet alumni before the program, during the program, attend job fairs etc....

Other educational options you might consider are the well-regarded Masters in Trade & Finance offered by the Cass Business School at City University in London. While academically could be equal to the UNIGE program, Cass is a better known business school, therefore has the in-house credibility to attract recruiters to campus, organize job fairs, and the competence to train you for an effective job search off-campus.

Conduct deeper research with the thoughts provided above and make an informed decision.

All the best
Baccardisprite

Here's my story- I'm in my 3rd year of engineering. I'll be taking CFA Level 1 this June and I'm planning to do an MBA straight after my graduation since I wont be able to survive in a boring IT job.
Now, considering the CAT fiasco (random papers, random results with PG gods not doing well, IIM's weird selection criteria, etc), I don't want to rely on only CAT to make a career in Finance ie don't want to put all my eggs in one basket.
I came to know about MS in Finance and Financial engineering today itself and I was hoping if anyone could spare only 5 minutes and help me with where an MS in Fin stands in front of an MBA in Fin? How do the two vary? How are the job prospects like? Plus I'm a fresher, no work exp, so would that cause any hindrance with me getting into good institutes for MS in Fin? I heard LSE offers MSc courses even for a fresher too. Are there many such institutes?

Thank you 😃

MS finance is actually suitable for less experienced people(atleast some websites of b-schools say that) so i think it would be suitable for u as against an MBA which requires few years of work ex.

Try the website 'global-derivatives quantitative masters' for a list of all the programmes.

The job opppurtunities are good post MS finance ,on par with MBAs but as a fresher it would be difficult as you dont have any previous exposure

Hi baccardisprite!!!!!

Congratulation for the awesome post!!!! Cheers....

I am B.Tech biotechnology graduate(2009) with a gpa of 8.1/10.
12th(PCBM)-81%
10th-86%
EC-decent
GMAT-giving nxt month (hoping for 730+)

I am working with infy from past 1.6 yrs..... i want to pursue my interest in consulting/strategy consulting/ product management in form of masters. i researched about a lot of programs and finally thought of doing my masters from Europe or UK in fall 2012 with a work experience of around 3 years. but when i was going through this entire thread, by your posts i learnt that masters in management is not a very good course.Is it so? If I do it from Teir 1 colleges like HEC, LSE(masters in strategy& management), St.Gallens, and some others. I always had a inclination towards finance also but i ve learned from some of knowns who are doing their MFIN that it is very difficult to get a job if you r nt from a finance background. I am very confused rite now. As i have my exam next month i really want to be sure of some good colleges and courses i can pursue.

I would be glad if u can provide some insight on this matter. I want to eventually come back to India, i can work there for 2-4 years not more than that so this is very major concern for me.

through ur post i ve learnt about delft(Holland) courses. Masters in integrated product design and masters in strategic product design look pretty interesting.If u can please throw some light on these course and job prospects and roi, it would be a grt help...

please guide me!!!!!!!!!!

thanks....

hello all ...
my profile : average high school..
gmat : 715
currently in final yr of college doing comp engg. (not interested in comp..)
good ec ..
now want to do msc in finance or management ..
with no work experience do i stand any chance ... im considering hec paris and esade spain ...
also give advice on any alternate career options .... i dont know much ...