Investment Banking in India and Abroad

Jamiroquai, how is Tresvista and Grant Thornton for IBD ? they offer valuation & advisory services.
In India how often do people switch from the above mentioned firms to BB offices like JPM, MS, Citi, DB ?


I hadn't heard of Tresvista while I was working in India - and what I knew of Grant Thornton was that they're solid in their tax advisory business. Both these firms would provide specific financial 'services' to banks, but IB is not something they're known for.

Hence, to be able to evaluate whether people from Tresvista and Grant Thornton move to a BB (in India) -I wouldn't think it were very common unless the BB in question had a specific requirement for ONE particular kind of skill-set. These specific requirements usually occur in the KPO / BO section of the bank.

Hello seniors / experts!

I am on the verge of "cracking" an all-important interview and getting a back office job in a reputed European IB. I have an Engineering degree with about 4 years of work experience majorly in Analytics / Operations.

I know nothing of IB but still have my eyes set on a front-office profile. I am shabby alright but I am presentable. I am pretty average but what sets me really apart is extreme client-centricity and stamina to withstand long stressful hours at work (which apparently has been highlighted in the first of posts here). I especially thrive in chaos and under tight deadlines. Now before the modesty kicks in I must also add I do this and more for a meagre / puny pay package of 3L; makes me wonder how I would be with IB take homes.

So I can put long hours of work and I am good with numbers too. And I also do not make a 0 out of 8 even if its the 17th hour of a Wednesday. And everybody acknowledges it and have too many client recommendations for repeatedly and unaskedly "going above and beyond".

Back to the question, I would not take up this (back office) job if the door to front office does not exist. Please advice how difficult it would be to break open the door-less wall to carve a niche entry to front office or even to middle office for that matter. (PS. I have extreme learnability)

Thanks for your help!

Hello seniors / experts!
...
Thanks for your help!


The divide between the back office and the middle office is pretty wide, but the divide between the middle office and the front office is massive. That being said, the transition from BO to FO is not possible without an extra-ordinary MBA degree in between.

wow.. that set the tone for a serious thought and a probable decline.. thank you for making it easier Jamiroquai

jazznewbie Says
wow.. that set the tone for a serious thought and a probable decline.. thank you for making it easier Jamiroquai


Sure thing, jazznewbie

Alright - lets move this over to some investment banking concepts. I'd love to talk to you about the following points with regard to current events. Why don't you guys pick one:
(a) project finance (something that is really popular in India and dominates the debt-side investment banking)
(b) restructurings and bankruptcies (anyone follow the AMR/American Airlines bankruptcy?)
(c) The European debt crisis - what the greek debt haircut was, why the debt crisis impacts the U.S., or anything related to this industry
(d) Everyone knows what a loan is, but do you guys get what bonds are - investment grade and high-yield bonds - these are really important in understanding how finance occurs across the world

I'm sure that everyone is aware of these - but the Indian newspapers that I've read don't even skim the surface of what is going on - even the Economic Times
Sure thing, jazznewbie

Alright - lets move this over to some investment banking concepts. I'd love to talk to you about the following points with regard to current events. Why don't you guys pick one:
(a) project finance (something that is really popular in India and dominates the debt-side investment banking)
(b) restructurings and bankruptcies (anyone follow the AMR/American Airlines bankruptcy?)
(c) The European debt crisis - what the greek debt haircut was, why the debt crisis impacts the U.S., or anything related to this industry
(d) Everyone knows what a loan is, but do you guys get what bonds are - investment grade and high-yield bonds - these are really important in understanding how finance occurs across the world

I'm sure that everyone is aware of these - but the Indian newspapers that I've read don't even skim the surface of what is going on - even the Economic Times


Hello Jamiroquai,

How is it going?

This can be a really didactic discussion. I'd pick (a) & (d).
Sure thing, jazznewbie

Alright - lets move this over to some investment banking concepts. I'd love to talk to you about the following points with regard to current events. Why don't you guys pick one:
(a) project finance (something that is really popular in India and dominates the debt-side investment banking)
(b) restructurings and bankruptcies (anyone follow the AMR/American Airlines bankruptcy?)
(c) The European debt crisis - what the greek debt haircut was, why the debt crisis impacts the U.S., or anything related to this industry
(d) Everyone knows what a loan is, but do you guys get what bonds are - investment grade and high-yield bonds - these are really important in understanding how finance occurs across the world

I'm sure that everyone is aware of these - but the Indian newspapers that I've read don't even skim the surface of what is going on - even the Economic Times


We keep hearing the term Project Finance.. Your inputs on that would be great...
Sure thing, jazznewbie

Alright - lets move this over to some investment banking concepts. I'd love to talk to you about the following points with regard to current events. Why don't you guys pick one:
(a) project finance (something that is really popular in India and dominates the debt-side investment banking)
(b) restructurings and bankruptcies (anyone follow the AMR/American Airlines bankruptcy?)
(c) The European debt crisis - what the greek debt haircut was, why the debt crisis impacts the U.S., or anything related to this industry
(d) Everyone knows what a loan is, but do you guys get what bonds are - investment grade and high-yield bonds - these are really important in understanding how finance occurs across the world

I'm sure that everyone is aware of these - but the Indian newspapers that I've read don't even skim the surface of what is going on - even the Economic Times

I would love a discussion on the European debt crisis and its implications.
moodysmartguy Says
I would love a discussion on the European debt crisis and its implications.


Great - first a bit of a primer. I'm gonna keep this very short, so that it doesn't bore anyone

Sovereign debt is the debt that a country issues (in bonds) to the general public for purchase. This debt is usually issued because the country needs money that it is not able to get from regular taxes. Generally, these gaps between expenditure and tax income tend to widen unless expenditure cuts are enforced or taxes are raised. Usually, when the bonds are due for repayment, the government just reissues new bonds to refinance the existing debt.

CDS - Credit Default Swaps are typically 'insurance' contracts bought against a bond default. The net impact of a CDS is that if your bond defaults, the CDS will get 'triggered' and cover you for the amount defaulted. These CDS' are sold by banks. Therefore, if the bond defaults, your loss is made good by the bank, but the bank suffers the loss of a bond default

The value of sovereign bonds tends to drop dramatically when countries come close to defaulting. For example, if a country took on $1000 worth of debt through 100 bonds worth $10 each, and then the country lost $900 of that debt, then each bond is now worth only $100/100 = $1 each. Hence, the bonds will trade at $1 each (the industry terminology is '10 cents on the dollar' since the bonds lost 90% of their value). This was what was happening with Greece, their bonds were trading at 58 cents.

So, the crisis in Greece was a combination of
(a) Greece being put in a position where some of it's debt was coming up. But the gap between its income and expenditures was so massive, that no one was willing to refinance greek debt. So greek would default on it's debt
(b) The default would trigger CDS' on a large scale. This required banks to cough up HUGE amounts in CDS payouts. This would cause banks to collapse and go bankrupt. Bank collapses are very scary - everyone panics and people lose a lot of their money
(c) US money managers had seen greek debt trade at 70 cents on the dollar and thought that the ECB would bail them out, restoring it to 100 cents on the dollar (par value). However, the situation got worse, and greek debt traded lower to 58 cents! U.S. money managers lost a ton of money

Okay - this is a ton of information - but i'm just scratching the surface - you can pick any section of this and I could expand on it

Working on Wall Street in FO at a BB IB. Ask any questions you guys want (not theoretical, you can google that).

ashmole2009 Says
Working on Wall Street in FO at a BB IB. Ask any questions you guys want (not theoretical, you can google that).


Thanks for joining us - which group do you work in?

Sales&Trading...you;?

ashmole2009 Says
Sales&Trading...you;?


Leveraged Finance (Capital Markets Origination) most recently. Previously, Syndicated & Leveraged Finance, Project Finance, Asset & Structured Finance and Risk (Credit).


(c) US money managers had seen greek debt trade at 70 cents on the dollar and thought that the ECB would bail them out, restoring it to 100 cents on the dollar (par value). However, the situation got worse, and greek debt traded lower to 58 cents! U.S. money managers lost a ton of money


hi jamiroquai,

it's really great to find somebody here helping us to understand these things in a layman language...thanks,

could you pls elaborate a bit abt ECB..have heard a lot abt it these days and wht does bailing out means and why ECB would bail out ( m sry to me it's nt clear above who did US managers think they would be bailed out by ECB)

CDS - Credit Default Swaps are typically 'insurance' contracts bought against a bond default. The net impact of a CDS is that if your bond defaults, the CDS will get 'triggered' and cover you for the amount defaulted. These CDS' are sold by banks. Therefore, if the bond defaults, your loss is made good by the bank, but the bank suffers the loss of a bond default


Quite an explanation, mate 😃 :thumbsup:

Well, let me know if I understood the CDS part correctly or not. In case the bond doesn't default then the banks make profit, so does the Government suffer loss by buying the bond or the Government stands to lose the premium paid - for buying the 'insurance'? And what are other consequences in this situation (when bonds don't default)?

And what does this 'haircut' mean?
hi jamiroquai,

it's really great to find somebody here helping us to understand these things in a layman language...thanks,

could you pls elaborate a bit abt ECB..have heard a lot abt it these days and wht does bailing out means and why ECB would bail out ( m sry to me it's nt clear above who did US managers think they would be bailed out by ECB)


ECB = European Central Bank

its the central bank for Euro, like for rupee we have Reserve Bank, and in US we have Federal Reserve.

Bailout = it means when a company defaults and is not able to pay its debts, big Gov banks pay the debt on behalf of the company, this is called financial bailout or simply bailout.
Like US Fedral Reserve bailed AIG and Bank of America Bailed merrill lynch during recession.

In this case the Greece (which is a country ) is defaulted and thus the investors who had Greek bonds lost very large amount of money. so dey want the ECB to bailout Greece.

dese investors include several US Managers.

PS: Seniors, pls correct me if i have written something wrong.

@Jamiroquai


My query is i have done engineering(regional college)
and have no experience.(will join in infosys in a month).But i m passionate about IB.Can you please suggest how i need to pursue the goal.I read that MBA is not essential.So wht is needed ?
I am already reading articles and books on finance as i m loving it !!!!!
thanks in advance

For those mildly interested in AMR - Distressed Debt Investing: Distressed Debt News / Research - AMR Bankruptcy

Jamiroquai, have you read traders, guns and money by Satyajit Das ?

(Since you mentioned you worked in struc fin, Lev fin, Proj fin)

Nice to see a new direction to this thread. Keep it coming.

ECB = European Central Bank
...


Love the explanation, thanks!

I'm going to repeat some of these concepts, but hopefully with a more expansive viewpoint.

1. could you pls elaborate a bit abt ECB..have heard a lot abt it these days and wht does bailing out means and why ECB would bail out ( m sry to me it's nt clear above who did US managers think they would be bailed out by ECB)
=> As mentioned, the ECB is the central bank for Europe. Why do countries need a central bank? Well, normally a central bank is looked at as the 'lender of the last resort'. This means, that when there is bad shit happening to the country, the central bank can step in and correct it. Here's a hypothetical look at how this happens:
Imagine you owe money to people and you realize that you're totally out of money by the middle of the month, and your salary won't even be enough to cover your debts. You turn to your dad for the money. Of course, your dad will be annoyed and probably eat your brains. But at the end of the day, he knows that if you don't pay your creditors, they're going to break your legs and teeth - and that paying for your dental work and orthopedic work is way more costly in the long run than paying off your debts right now. Plus, it looks terrible to have a son with a black eye. So your dad pays off the debt for you. But what if you had a LOT of debt. Like Billions of dollars? Well, if your dad was really the strongest? (Like the RBI or the Fed or the Saffola Oil dad), Well, then he could print you all the money you needed to go and pay off that debt. That's a lender of last resort - he can print money for you so that you can pay off your debts in the interim.

This also is a 'bailout'. It prevents you from being bankrupt. When countries go bankrupt and are unable to pay their debts, their punishment is usually that they can NEVER borrow in the international markets again. Like Argentina! And the domestic investors usually don't have the kind of ability to lend like international investors do - so defaulting on your international investor is a terrible terrible thing to do

2. The Fed, the RBI and the ECB - although 'Central Banks' - have differing objectives. The Reserve Bank of India is in control of bank reserve rates, foreign exchange trading and other monetary indicators. The RBI's goals are diverse and range from ensuring that inflation is controlled right up to controlling the the rupee / dollar exchange rate. The RBI's primary mandate is to ensure the growth of the country without hyperinflation. The RBI has the power to step in and prevent a bank from failing (if the bank was very important - like if SBI were to fail)

The Federal Reserve is also tasked with similar objectives, except for the dollar rate. The Fed normally lets the dollar float completely as per what the demand and supply is.

However, the ECB is tasked with not letting inflation spiral out of control. It does not step in and print money to save the european banks. Why does it do this? Well to prevent what is known as 'moral hazard'. Since the eurozone is made of different countries, politicians in different european countries would allow their banks to lend to everyone for no reason - making their citizens very happy. But this is bad banking, and bad loans would pile up - causing the banks to fail. Then the politicians would ask the ECB to step in to save the banks. Moral Hazard.

So, the ECB just doesn't step in that way - preventing the politicians from having a 'daddy' they can go to if everything goes bad.
...
could you pls elaborate a bit abt ECB..have heard a lot abt it these days and wht does bailing out means and why ECB would bail out ( m sry to me it's nt clear above who did US managers think they would be bailed out by ECB)


So the debt was trading at 70 cents. This means you could buy $1 of debt at 70 cents.

This debt is in the form of bonds, which is structured like this. If you buy a $1 bond at 10% interest for 4 years, you will have to pay $1. Then for every year, for 4 years, you will receive 10% interest on that $1. And then at the end of the fourth year, you will get $1 back.

However, when there is a doubt cast upon the repayment ability, there is a doubt cast upon how much of that $1 you will get back in the end. Hence, the bonds traded down to 70 cents in the case of Greece.

Now, the money managers thought this way "hey! It's a county's debt! No country will default on it's debt! They will get the ECB to bail Greece out (give it money to repay it's debt) - so instead of getting back only 70 cents, we will get our original dollar back! This is a profit of 30 cents on an investment of 70 cents".

However, the ECB will not and cannot do this - so then the money managers lost out big time because they bet on something that did not happen.