International educational options beyond the MBA

Hi, I am currently entering 3rd year of my Bachelors of Business Studies Degree and have been looking at GMAT, and admission tests OTHER than CAT in India.

I spoke with a person from ******** and he was of the opinion that MBA without work ex leaves us with VERY few options globally and nationally.

But he also introduced me to the concept of Masters/MSc in Management and/or Marketing. I researched a bit and liked the Masters in management programmes in LBS, LSE and Masters in Marketing Programme in ESADE, Spain. Please do tell me if it is even worth the effort and money,(almost 40,000 Euro) to try and get into these colleges for these programmes as your posts suggest that they might not have great job prospects.
Also, tell me if its a better idea to go for work experience?


I would always value work experience! Please get a job whatever the salary, and work for a few years. If you're in a tearing rush to study for a Masters now, do so in India, where the economy and job market is way more healthy than you would find in Europe or the UK.

These programs are worth it if there's a good job market in which you have a competitive chance to get employed. Right now, the UK & EU haven't really recovered from debt related macroeconomic issues or recession. Not only are jobs scarce, but you will also not find an economic atmosphere friendly to non-EU/UK professionals.

Secondly - even if the job market was good you bring neither local professional / personal or cultural experience whatsover NOR any transferable experience from another country; that employers would value, so getting any face time to convince any one of your abilities is unlikely at your stage.

Thirdly - jobs that are relatively origin / citizenship independent (finance or quantitative) are few are far between, in any case you don't seem interested in finance.

All the best
Baccardisprite
What kind of profile do corporations like CRISIL offer, through courses like CCAP( crisil certified analyst program).
If somebody like me having exp. in SAIL, joins this course on the basis of my industry experience of 3 years, what profile will I be aiming at in the long run, and how will my exp help in a credit analyst's role? As per CRISIL's websites and pagalguy forums, I think in their credit ratings and advisory wings I can leverage my industry exp easily. What are your thoughts on this ?


So you are interested in Finance?! Sorry - wasn't completely apparent to me in your previous post.

I know what a credit analyst does, but don't know about the CRISIL course, so would ask that you seek other guidance on this forum (sorry - just plain ignorant).

Yes - specialist, commercial / operational experience of an industry complemented with a Professional Financial Analyst qualification can position you very well to be a Credit / Financial / Equity / Fixed Income / Financial Markets analyst or portfolio manager / advisor - for the metals, commodity, mining and heavy engineering industries in the mid to long term. Also think that's a career path that makes sense in your case.

However, I would encourage you to consider a widely / globally respected and accepted qualification for this - CFA, instead of going for a narrow qualification like that probably offered by CRISIL. In other words - aim big and take the qualification that's applicable, valuable and transferable.

If financial analysis & portfolio management is your calling, a CFA (given over the next 3-4 years with the professional charter after experience), complemented with an MBA with Corporate Finance / Economics & Markets focused electives would be ideal.

Read about the CFA qualification www.cfainstitute.org and find out more.

All the best
Baccardisprite.

well thanx for such a quick reply sir, just to provide you with a quick insight into the Course which I am talking about

CCAP(CRISIL Certified Analyst Program)


1.CCAP is a two-year intensive entry level programme. Its a study cum work course, with classes being held at NITIE Mumbai for two days in a week, and the rest of the four days you will gain hands on exp. working with CRISIL.

2.CRISIL will pay you a stipend of Rs. 8000 per month for the first year, and Rs. 10000 per month for the second year. They will provide you with the textbooks too, free of cost. So, there would be no expenses from your side except the application fee.

3.Basically the intake is for five divisions of CRISIL. Credit Ratings, Advisory, Global Analytical Centre, Irevna, Research.


Ratings:
In general, a financial rating is an opinion about the ability of an entity/ instrument to perform its financial obligations as per predetermined terms and conditions. CRISIL ratings rates debt instruments of institutions ranging from a MSME to say, a RIL, and across different industry sectors. It is the only rating agency in the country to operate on the basis of sectoral specialisation.


Global Analytical Centre:
The Global Analytical Centre (GAC), directly works with Standard and Poors, on the financial ratings of the global clients of Standard and Poors, based majorly in USA and Europe. The major difference between GAC and CRISIL Ratings is that the GAC works on the financial ratings of companies based outside the country, and CRISIL Ratings concentrates on the financial ratings of companies based in India.

Research:
CRISIL Research is the largest independent research house in the country. It tracks various industry sectors ranging from manufacturing to services to commodities based ones. Apart from the industry research, it also provides its clients access to customised research (based on the clients' different needs etc), and IPO (Initial Public Offer) grading and IER (Independent Equity Research). The medium of communication to the clients is in the form of monthly, quarterly and annual updates.

For more details, please refer to: https://www.crisilresearch.com/
Irevna:
As Shashank put it, Irevna basically deals in global research for various clients of Irevna like the investment banks, asset management companies, insurance companies etc. Therefore, it deals basically in customized research, with the focus on the global side.

For more details, please refer to: Irevna
Risk:
It is basically assessing/evaluating/managing/mitigating diff aspects of Financial Risk associated with doing business. As of now in India, work in the field of Financial Risk is primarily confined to the Indian Banking sector. CRISIL is the biggest player in India providing Financial Risk solutions and Financial Risk Consulting to the Indian Banking sector.

Skills set required: In addition to an interest in the field of finance, a CCAP-ian Financial Risk Aspirant should have a good mathematical background (read good quantitative aptitude skills and interest towards statistics and probability) combined with good IT knowledge/experience. An ideal aspirant would be an engineering graduate (but not necessarily, students from other graduation streams are equally successful) with prior work experience in the IT/financial services sector with good consulting skills and willingness to travel to client location.

Risk is a very niche and specific field in the finance domain. It has not yet evolved as much in India as it has been in other major financial centres around the world. So the downside risk of opting for Financial Risk is that one will be choosing a very specific field of Finance from the very beginning of his/her career. Also opportunities as of now in India are not that much as available in other areas of Finance.

For more details, please refer to: CRISIL Advisory Risk Solutions
Advisory:
CRISIL Advisorys activities range from developing enabling legislations and proactive sector policies to structuring concessions, undertaking complex feasibility studies, managing project procurements through global competitive bidding, assisting with fiscal and public sector reforms, and valuation & value enhancement through structuring. It works very closely with Central and State Governments in structuring bankable projects and in managing the commercialization/privatization programme in a transparent, objective and time-bound manner.
For more informations u can

CRISIL Certified Analyst Programme

Hi baccardisprite,

I've been following your thread for quite sometime now. And i must say you've done a gr8 job with it :)

I'm a Telecom professional, graduated from NITT in 2009. I wrote my GMAT in June 2009 and scored 720. Originally had planned to wait for 4-5 years and then target B-Schools abroad. But now that option doesnt really hold so i've shifted focus to MS. I'd love to specialize in HR, starting off as a HR generalist. Later moving on to niche roles like performane management and appraisal or L&D; or the HR division of M&A.; I plan to stay in the workfore for a long time, so I know that a couple of years down the line my MS will lose its appeal to employers. I have it in my mind to go in for a late carrer MBA to offset that problem.

Now, cutting straight to the chase.

My biggest concern is if I'm taking the right decision to go abroad for a HR degree. Quite a lot of the people I have spoken to have told me that HR positions are usually filled with ppl who understand the pulse/culture of the country they are practising in. And that foriegn national are usually not entertained. I am targeting US universities like Cornell, Illinois, Ohio, Purdue, West Virginia, Penn State, Minnesota and maybe Brigham Young. Another concern in job availability post graduation. Though the uni sites and some students I have spoken to say that almost everyone gets a job, I'm not really convinced abt the authenticity of the claims. Its what EVERY uni claims isnt it?!?!?

A little deviation here.. I dont mind coming back to India post MS. The tuition investment is manageable for me and I would have no or minimal loan post MS. But the quality of HR roles in India is a concern again, plus whether employers are open to hiring graduates from abroad. I dont really have much information about this.

Oh and my profile goes something like this:

10th - 91
12th - 83
BE - 7.1/10:banghead:
GMAT - 720
AWA - 4.5
EC - President of Student council body for 2 years in Senior School, Member of lots of org committies in col, rotaract member, some voluntary work (nothing registered, self start)

I have ample foreign exposure, if that counts for MS admission. I did my schooling in Kuwait.

Would really appreciate your insight on this.

Hi baccardisprite, I've been following your thread for quite sometime now. And i must say you've done a gr8 job with it :)

I'm a Telecom professional, graduated from NITT in 2009. I wrote my GMAT in June 2009 and scored 720. Originally had planned to wait for 4-5 years and then target B-Schools abroad. But now that option doesnt really hold so i've shifted focus to MS. I'd love to specialize in HR, starting off as a HR generalist. Later moving on to niche roles like performane management and appraisal or L&D; or the HR division of M&A.; I plan to stay in the workfore for a long time, so I know that a couple of years down the line my MS will lose its appeal to employers. I have it in my mind to go in for a late carrer MBA to offset that problem.

Now, cutting straight to the chase.

My biggest concern is if I'm taking the right decision to go abroad for a HR degree. Quite a lot of the people I have spoken to have told me that HR positions are usually filled with ppl who understand the pulse/culture of the country they are practising in. And that foriegn national are usually not entertained. I am targeting US universities like Cornell, Illinois, Ohio, Purdue, West Virginia, Penn State, Minnesota and maybe Brigham Young. Another concern in job availability post graduation. Though the uni sites and some students I have spoken to say that almost everyone gets a job, I'm not really convinced abt the authenticity of the claims. Its what EVERY uni claims isnt it?!?!?

A little deviation here.. I dont mind coming back to India post MS. The tuition investment is manageable for me and I would have no or minimal loan post MS. But the quality of HR roles in India is a concern again, plus whether employers are open to hiring graduates from abroad. I dont really have much information about this.

Oh and my profile goes something like this:

10th - 91
12th - 83
BE - 7.1/10:banghead:
GMAT - 720
AWA - 4.5
EC - President of Student council body for 2 years in Senior School, Member of lots of org committies in col, rotaract member, some voluntary work (nothing registered, self start)

I have ample foreign exposure, if that counts for MS admission. I did my schooling in Kuwait.

Would really appreciate your insight on this.


Thanks for the positive feedback, glad you find the thread useful.

You have correctly surmised in your post about HR being a local career, for exactly those reasons.

HR is an important function in large companies, so much so that many fortune 100-200 global corporations run independent HR Leadership Programs with international career opportunities. These opportunities are available only after you have achieved 5-7 years of solid local experience reflecting:

- adequate professional / leadership or specific HR functional experience
e.g - you have specific, applicable & transferable experience related to recruiting mid-level management talent; and / or have managed a small group of HR professionals.

- solid understanding of the business, corporate culture and key HR related policies of the company (applied and in practice)
e.g - you are an authority on Personal Development Plans for employees, managers and executives and have the relevant experience to show for it; or you're an expert in competitive compensation planning!

- solid experience in HR led projects or business projects
e.g - you have contributed to / led a major HR Information System upgrade for the local subsidiary of the company; or have successfully managed the HR aspects of integration of a major acquisition (including sensitive areas like employee retention or termination when that needs to happen)

Alongside and perhaps above all this, you need to be seen as a sensitive, empathetic yet assertive leader, and flawless communicator. HR personnel are normally the least understood (therefore the least liked) people in a company because they're often seen as the messengers of unpopular change, hold senstive information about employees and compensation and the like! It makes your job somewhat secretive in what you can say / not say to your colleagues, and that breeds some resentment. You need to strike the balance in maintaining the good relationship with your colleagues in the company - and that's the part which takes longer and is absolutely needed for you to move your career scope international.

You'll need all of the above on your resume to convince an employer abroad (including international assignments within the same company) to choose you above other HR professionals.

All of the above takes time, on average 5-7 years if you start young.

If you to go abroad to study, you'll find it hard to get jobs abroad because you wouldn't yet have any of the above on your CV / persona to convince an employer in the US (example) to hire you. You could come back to India after the education, but HR recruiting for young talent / leadership programs (aged 22-25) tends to happen on b-school and college campuses in India - again the locally educated talent is preferred. As such, while you would find it financially manageable, I think going abroad for your studies would be impractical; to be frank a waste of your time and family's (?) hard earned cash. As for the schools you refer to - again they're second tier in their countries. Least you can do with your GMAT score is apply to more well regarded schools.

If you're very clear about an HR career, I recommend targeting entry into XLRI's PM-IR program next year - pretty much the top school in India for HR, and then getting to a major corporate HR Leadership program or the CAT and one of the IIMs or Bajaj, MDI or similarly reputed school. A close friend of mine did just that, she graduated XL in 2006, joined a Fortune 50 telecom company, worked 3 years in India and is now working in the Far East for the regional HQ of that company.

Hope this helps you with your decision
All the best
Baccardisprite

Thanks for your response. It wasn't sweet to read, but truth's most often bitter, so there. :drinking:

I had considered XLRI's PMIR program, considering how its a top notch program in Asia, but havent ben able to clear the damned quants cut off!
Anyways, the schools I am now targeting in India are XLRI, TISS, and I know that MDI has a flagship HR program. Beyond that there are IMTG and SIBM, but I have reservations about these schools. Could you please put across a list of schools with good HR programs in India.

The issue is that without a degree, nobody wants to give a fresher a chance at the HR function. I could probably ask for a switch in my firm to the HR dept, but thats not to be likely for another year or so. I have an opportunity to work in HR - Recruitment in a good business analytics firm, but thats contractual. Do I make the switch? As in, will that count as submissible HR experience or be of any use at all?

Also, which other schools have better MS-HR programs than the ones I have mentioned? I thought Cornell & Illinois were the top schools.

Fantasy Q: Is it possible you are inaccurate in your views of employability in India for the situation I had mentioned? 😁

Thanks for your response. It wasn't sweet to read, but truth's most often bitter, so there. :drinking:

I had considered XLRI's PMIR program, considering how its a top notch program in Asia, but havent ben able to clear the damned quants cut off!
Anyways, the schools I am now targeting in India are XLRI, TISS, and I know that MDI has a flagship HR program. Beyond that there are IMTG and SIBM, but I have reservations about these schools. Could you please put across a list of schools with good HR programs in India.

The issue is that without a degree, nobody wants to give a fresher a chance at the HR function. I could probably ask for a switch in my firm to the HR dept, but thats not to be likely for another year or so. I have an opportunity to work in HR - Recruitment in a good business analytics firm, but thats contractual. Do I make the switch? As in, will that count as submissible HR experience or be of any use at all?

Also, which other schools have better MS-HR programs than the ones I have mentioned? I thought Cornell & Illinois were the top schools.

Fantasy Q: Is it possible you are inaccurate in your views of employability in India for the situation I had mentioned? :D


I have been wrong before and don't mind being corrected if genuinely wrong :-). However, am confident of my opinion above in describing a factual pattern, there're always exceptions.

To the schools - I don't know which the best HR related programs are (you can research using MBA rankings like that of US News & World Report), but the larger point I was that whatever the school, your origins and lack of local experience in the US (professional / cultural) might hinder your prospects. It's not about going to whatever (now), but simply about going abroad (now) for the education towards the career you seek.

XL and TISS are the best specialist options - target those schools. Quant sections are not magic, it takes conceptual understanding and practice, which means studying :-), getting tutored if required, practising sectional & full mock tests.. Most of the 99%iles in CAT/XAT/GMAT are not academic genuises. They just worked a little harder (therefore got a little luckier) for d-day. Enrol yourself in a good test prep institute and attempt the XAT / CAT with confidence.

All the best
Baccardisprite

Thanks again for the promptness and no nonsense approach. What you've said about the 99.xx %iles is true, point taken and will be worked upon :)

Does all the above hypothesis hold true if its Masters in Marketing Mgmt instead of HR? Thats for my fall back plan in case I dont make it in XL or TISS.

Thanks again for the promptness and no nonsense approach. What you've said about the 99.xx %iles is true, point taken and will be worked upon :)

Does all the above hypothesis hold true if its Masters in Marketing Mgmt instead of HR? Thats for my fall back plan in case I dont make it in XL or TISS.


Yes it unfortunately does. You can call Marketing/Sales the consumer / customer / client facing side of HR :-). Requires on ground or immediately transferable experience.

Recommend you follow your passion, if you work hard and be disciplined about it.

All the best

Thank you very much for this.

hiii...first of all,thank you for this thread....


now,i look to join for a M.Sc in human resource management in UK...I need to know about the scpoe of this course and the probability to get a good job...can any one help please????also suggest me some good universities in UK for the above....


also,there is a course for M.Sc in mechanical engineering and management in Glasgow University....can any one tell please how good the course is and how good the university is......


hoping for some help here...
thank you...

hiii...first of all,thank you for this thread....


now,i look to join for a M.Sc in human resource management in UK...I need to know about the scpoe of this course and the probability to get a good job...can any one help please????also suggest me some good universities in UK for the above....


also,there is a course for M.Sc in mechanical engineering and management in Glasgow University....can any one tell please how good the course is and how good the university is......


hoping for some help here...
thank you...

Dear All Experts,
Specially the active ones (Mission, Bacardi,PK):
Am running Pillar to post (or thread to thread) to get this answered, please take time and help me in kicking start this crucial procedure.
You may also redirect me to any specific blog/ source which does comparative study, economic feasibility of various Finance courses. As though am ready to do research on options further but struggling to get started properly.

Am quite new to this International MBA section. Please suggest colleges I can target to meet following requirements :

1. Work experience in Finance Risk Management (done with FRM). Presently working as risk management (banking) consultant and would like to carry in the same/ilar field.
2. Scored 690 (Q51:V32) in GMAT, didn't apply anywhere as I guess I need to prepare GMAT (specially the SC part) before writing it one more time.
3. Talking of some 5 choices for MBA Finance, two am very inclined to are ISB/HKUST as both are relatively more affordable and finishes in an year itself. Additionally am banking on >80% expenditure to be covered by loan in these cases.
4. Please suggest some more B schools from US as am new to that geography. I am ready to do research from there on.
5.Affordability is definitely an issue with my limited savings and resources. Imagine some one having no major collateral/co-signer to put, is there still any way out to do MBA abroad.
hiii...first of all,thank you for this thread....


now,i look to join for a M.Sc in human resource management in UK...I need to know about the scpoe of this course and the probability to get a good job...can any one help please????also suggest me some good universities in UK for the above....


also,there is a course for M.Sc in mechanical engineering and management in Glasgow University....can any one tell please how good the course is and how good the university is......


hoping for some help here...
thank you...


First choose between HR and Engineering.

Please refer to the previous 15-20 posts in this thread to understand HR careers.

Hi

For past two hours i am going through this thread and it is quite informative.I have been working with one of the top telecom software companies for past 2 years after completely my engineering. For past 2 years i have been writing CAT but never made it and CAT 2009 was massacre.Now i am planing to write GMAT some time around mid september but i have little apprehensive about it.

Is two years experience in IT holds some value for international MBA?

I want to do MBA in marketing or operations but i always think that marketing is culture or society specific. The concepts that are valid in europe may not hold true for INDIA as i want to come back to INDIA after gaining some international exposure due to family constraints.Will it work fine?

Is there any other good B-school that accepts GMAT score in India other than ISB/IIM?

I am also looking for course other than MBA that provides some blend of management and telecommunications but not MBA in telecom that SITM offers, Is there any university in Europe or US that provides this type of course?

Thanks in advance

Hey Baccardisprite!

I am presently in my 4th year ofelectronics and communication engineering, have a cgpa of 8/10.
I have recently come across the MSc Management programs offered by various UK universities. I also know that most of them are really competitive. I've done my research on most of the programs.
My profile:
I've organized a couple of really big events at college and also headed one of them.
Have done an internship at technology start up.
I did attend the LSE Summer School last summer, secured an A grade.
I also got other extra curricular such as Salsa, basic accounting and and a couple of other trainings at the Electronics Corp of India ltd.

The reason i would want to pursue MSc Management is
1. I don't want to land up in an IT job as i am pretty bad at programming and there are only a couple of companies that take electronics and communication grad into core functions and getting those jobs is really difficult.
2. We have a family business and my desire is to take it to new heights and diversify from just manufacturing to clean energy and constructions.

I want to know should i take up the IT job work for sometime then go for an MBA or take up a MSc Management course?

Thanks!

That is an interesting profile!

Hello BacardiSprite,

I am in a dilemma .... I have admissions from both RSM Erasmus with no scholarship and Nyenrode with substantial scholarship for full time MBA program.

Plz help me to decide what will be my best bet ....

a good school with no scholarship or a less known school with cost benefit.

Cheers !!

Dear Sir,

I am Electrical Engineering Graduate from a Regional College. I managed to get into a Public Sector Enterprise which is into Engineering Consultancy.

I am into the Energy Management field, but I have also done projects in Quality Management, Operations and HR, for various industries ranging from process industries like chemicals, sugars, automotive to service industries like Electricity Boards and Railways. I have about 2 years of experience (including one year of training). My queries:

1. Will my one year training period be considered as experience or do I need to wait for another year to be in the 2+ year experience bracket?

2. If I am to continue to work for another year, please suggest any parallel activities to be taken up, like CWA.

2. I am interested in Operations Management not particularly into any sector (as you can see that my experience is not limited to any single sector). I do not intend to move out of India at this point of time. Please suggest a good MBA or equivalent programme in OR

Regards,

Pavan

Dear All Experts,
Specially the active ones (Mission, Bacardi,PK):
Am running Pillar to post (or thread to thread) to get this answered, please take time and help me in kicking start this crucial procedure.
You may also redirect me to any specific blog/ source which does comparative study, economic feasibility of various Finance courses. As though am ready to do research on options further but struggling to get started properly.

Am quite new to this International MBA section. Please suggest colleges I can target to meet following requirements :

1. Work experience in Finance Risk Management (done with FRM). Presently working as risk management (banking) consultant and would like to carry in the same/ilar field.
2. Scored 690 (Q51:V32) in GMAT, didn't apply anywhere as I guess I need to prepare GMAT (specially the SC part) before writing it one more time.
3. Talking of some 5 choices for MBA Finance, two am very inclined to are ISB/HKUST as both are relatively more affordable and finishes in an year itself. Additionally am banking on >80% expenditure to be covered by loan in these cases.
4. Please suggest some more B schools from US as am new to that geography. I am ready to do research from there on.
5.Affordability is definitely an issue with my limited savings and resources. Imagine some one having no major collateral/co-signer to put, is there still any way out to do MBA abroad.

Business school rankings and MBA rankings from the Financial Times - this is a good place to start researching.

US Schools - MIT (Master of Finance), Boston College / Caroll School of Management (MSF), Rotman School Toronto (MS Finance), Stern School NYU, Queens Univercity Canada (Queen's School of Business - Master of Management in Finance), Cass School / City University (Various MS in Finance courses including Risk Management), ICMA Center at Univ Reading (M.S Finance). None of these would offer the opportunity for a collateral free loan. You'd have to necessarily borrow in India for your education abroad. But good news - people have done it before.

I think your GMAT is fine. Suggest to build a strong profile you also apply for the CFA and learn a foreign language.

Cheerz & All the best