International educational options beyond the MBA

MBA
712
hey hi baccardisprite.....this is an excellent thread i have come across....thanx...I am a B.tech in Civil from VJTI,Mumbai....joined L&T; 6 months back....working in the project management team in the Design Centre for EPC projects..

SSC:92%
HSC:87%
CGPA:7.9/10
Lots of ECA's....in coll...was the chief co-ordinator for our fests...
Yet to Take the GRE...

i am planning to apply in FALL 2012...with a 17 month exp....

I am considering the following progs....pls give ur giudance....
1.MEM Duke
2.MEM Dartmouth
3.MPM Northwestern.
4.MSE Stanford( just trying although difficult)
5.Columbia & USC Engineering management progs....
6.MEng.Engineering Management-Cornell
7.Michigan Operations/SCM

I wish to work in management functions like product development/service development or in operations but in an non IT sector....want to make the transition frm my undergrad field....actually m looking at healthcare industry(product development/marketing/opeartions)...nd i wish to work in the US for a few years...bfore starting something in the field of health care in india..... pls suggest , wat wud b required to get into the above progs....nd whether they wud help me in my career building...

i was fascinated by the MMM prog in Northwestern...but i guess it requires extensive work-ex....nd i need to get in by max FALL 2012-13....cos of personal reasons... PLS HELP BACCARDISPRITE!!!


If you're in a rush to get into healthcare now, I'd recommend a different approach - try to get into:

*a major Indian Pharmaceutical (Ranbaxy / Reddys / Zydus / Abbott-Piramal / Biocon), Medical Device or Hospital / Healthcare Services company (Apollo / Wockhardt / Escorts) OR
*Pharma, Biotech, Medical device MNCs with a strong Indian footprint (GE Healthcare, Philips India, Pfizer, Abbott, Johnson & Johnson)

in a commercial operational function, even as a Management Trainee - build a bank of skills and experience there. Then after 3-4 go for a Healthcare focused Technical/ Managerial M.S program or an MBA with Healthcare electives and you'll be in a good place to convince International Employers to hire you.

Sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but it's to help with your thought process to seek a long term career, with education merely a stepping stone.

All the best
Baccardisprite
713
I needed your expertise as i am also sailing on the same boat as many others on PG...

I am currently working on the retail banking side of an MNC bank for the past 18 months..Educational background includes a PG Diploma in management from Tier 1 college in India and Electrical Engineering from a Deemed university..Also a CFA L2 candidate...

I intend to pursue a Masters program in Finance and would like to pursue my career in the Capital markets / IB side in profiles like fund raising, debt syndication, M&A;,etc..

LBS MIF is definitely on my radar..wanted to know any other options for Masters program which are not heavy on the quant side....

Thanks a lot.....


In addition to LBS' MIF - you could look at the below in the UK:

LSE's Masters in Finance & Economics
Imperial College's M.Sc in Finance
Cambridge & Oxford's M.Sc in Finance / Financial Engineering
Cass / City University's Programs in Finance

Hope this helps
All the best
Baccardisprite
714
Hi Baccardisprite,

Thanks a ton, for giving valuable inputs to the queries, and I hope same for me also

Looking for some suggestion from you::
I am a Indian IT male having 3.5 yr work ex(worked on banking CRM development) in a major Indian MNC.
10/12th- 70%/78.4%
BE(comp sci) - 65.2%
Cat 2009 -94.38%
gmat (july08 ) -640

want to pursue a course in
1)IT consulting (BFSI domain)
2)Finance engg/managment.

now confused between ::
to keep doing present job / prep for GRE/GMAT/CAT/CFA(1)/blah blah
I am not concerned on ROI, but want to pursue a course of quality, which can open doors for great opportunity in india/and outside.

please give your valuable inputs,if you have got the idea of my confusion/miseries


IT Consulting (for BFSI) and Core Finance / Banking are 2 separate functions and you'll need to decide which one you're more passionate about. IT Consulting is a more conservative option given it's what you're doing, while the latter is a career shift.

The latter is not impossible, but difficult right now, as finance & banking in the US & UK (the biggest markets for finance professionals) are carrying baggage from 2007/2008. Of course Asia including (with its growth) is where most finance professionals want to be now.

The UK is known to offer well-regarded finance programs - LBS (MiF), LSE (M.Sc in Finance & Econ), Imperial College (M.Sc Finance), Cambridge Judge (MiF), Said / Oxford (Masters in Financial Economics), and Cass / City University's Masters in Finance. However, the graduates want to be recruited into a difficult UK market right now, which is unwelcoming & hyper-competitive for the Non-EU graduate.

I'm not familiar with Asia's best Finance programs, but you can search the top Universities in Singapore, HongKong, India and China for the best programs.

Choose your future geography carefully, then choose the best school.

I would recommend going for the CFA and clear at least 2 levels before you enter a finance specific program. Given the challenges described above, I would strongly recommend diligently preparing for and taking the CAT / CET / XAT and getting into a major Indian B-School - IIM / XL / FMS / JB / SPJ / IMT / MDI etc, then trying to get into a good finance role in India for a few years then spread wings abroad.

For IT Consulting, you'd need an M.Sc in Technology Management or an MBA with electives in Technology, Operations, Finance & Strategy. The best schools for this are known to be in the US, and are attached to universities that also house Top Engineering Schools.

Hope that helps...
All the best
Baccardisprite
715
Hi Baccardisprite,
I've been lurking around the thread for a while and thank you for providing such valuable advice to all the puys here...
I'm fresh out of college...
10th-71.25%
12th-75%
B.B.A- 70% in Finance and decent extracurriculars
I'll be appearing for FRM L1 & CFA L1 in DEC 2011 and have 4 months of work-ex at this point....i'm looking for a career in finance and wanted to know about some masters courses in finance in the Asian region and is it a good time for me to apply or should i wait a year and gather some more work-ex....and any other courses in finance you would refer i should look into...

Thanx,
Abhishek


I am unfortunately not familiar with top finance programs in the Asian Region. Best to google the top universities in Singapore, Hong Kong, China, Korea and Japan and look for specific finance programs that might interest you.

Best of course is to diligently prepare for and appear for the CAT/XAT/CET and try getting into IIMs, JB, XL, FMS, SPJ, IMT, MDI or similar schools in India, which offer a strong window of opportunity for early careers in finance.

Apologies if this doesn't help you, but you can't do much better than get into a Top Indian B-School at your age and get into Finance.

All the best
Baccardisprite
716
Hi ,

I was finding a releavnt thread wherein we could discuss foreign education apart from MBA and bumped into this one. I am currently working in an Indian IT MNC in banking prodcut domain and seriously interested to take the next step in my career. Work ex - 30 months
One of my seniors at work suggested about M.Sc(Management Sci) , a taught programme at London School of Economics(LSE).
They have thier rounds of admissions every year.

After going through the curriculum , i also found some relevant Organisational behaviour and international realtions courses (I am seriously interested in HR). The only doubt i had was regarding the RoI on these courses and the opportunities to come back and work in India once we are done with these.

Tried to go through som initial pages on this thread.. Would go through the rest too.. thought of posting this query meanwhile..

If someone has any info on this.. can you please share.
Else can u pls help me navigate to the thread in case the same has already been discussed elsewhere..

Thanks


HR is a highly local career in the first 5-7 years, during which you need to acquire the right set of people management skills and business acumen relevant to the culture of your company and industry, before you can move ahead to more international assignments. Given the heavy people interaction and sensitivities, it also has to be culturally immersive meaning you need to know the local language, market and culture of the country where you work in the HR function.

In your care therefore, you start in India. The best schools in India which offer windows of opportunity to get into HR are XLRI & TISS + any of the Top 10 Indian business schools. Work hard, appear for the CAT / XAT etc, try to get into a big name Indian school and then target a career in HR.

Please read through this thread where I have explained HR careers in some detail.

All the Best
Baccardisprite
717
In addition to LBS' MIF - you could look at the below in the UK:

LSE's Masters in Finance & Economics
Imperial College's M.Sc in Finance
Cambridge & Oxford's M.Sc in Finance / Financial Engineering
Cass / City University's Programs in Finance

Hope this helps
All the best
Baccardisprite



A lot of PGites have been looking at MiF / MS Finance courses. I am a new member of PG but let me give some information about courses in Finance in Europe / Asia. Bear in mind that I too am an aspirant like you, so please check the veracity of my words before deciding to apply.

Based on my research I'd discuss a few select programs which are worth looking at.

Europe:
MiF / MS Finance is offered across Europe in different flavours.

UK: As pointed out by baccardisprite, the better places for Masters in Finance are LBS, Judge @ Cambridge University, Cass @ City University, Imperial College, London School of Economics & Political Science, Said @ Oxford Univeristy. In addition the following programs also have above average reputation- ICMA Centre @ University of Reading, Warwick and Exeter.

Mainlan Europe: IE Business School (Spain); RSM Erasmus, University of Amsterdam (Netherlands); SDA Bocconi (Italy), Frankfut School of Finance & Management (Germany) and University of Monaco.

However these programs have different entrance requirements.

Programs for experienced candidates only: LBS (Both FT and PT), Said @ Cambridge (Only FT), IE Madrid Master in Advanced Finance (Only FT). These programs require you to have atleast 2+ years of work experience, preferably in finance domain (the experience may be ancillary eg. Business Analyst in BFSI space).
Taking into account reputation, quality of teaching and placement I'd rate them as LBS > Said @ Cambridge ~ IE Master in Advanced Finance (Cambridge is a better brand but IE program has a better practical orientation)

The average age for these programs in in range of 28-30 years with approximate range of 25-35 (Part time MiF @ LBS has a higher range).

All other Programs have no work-ex requirements.
However if you have less than 5 years of experience, you may look at these programs, especially those who are looking at domain / industry / function change in their careers.


Specialty programs: As I said earlier most of these programs come in different flavours. Let me tell you why.

Cass @ City University offers a suite of courses in finance from generalist MSc Finance to niche non-quant and quant oriented Masters to exotic ones like MSc in Energy, Trade & Finance. Look at their website for complete info. Their portfolio of programs would cover people interested in all roles ranging from Investment Management to I Banking to Quant / Algorithmic / Prop trading to Actuary to Corporate Finance to Commodity & Energy.

Imperial College offers a generalist MSc Finance and perhaps the best regarded MSc in Actuarial Finance in UK. If you are looking at Actuarial Science as a career goal, look no further.

LSE also offers a generalist MSc Finance and a MSc Finance & Economics program. They have a Financial Markets Group (FMG) Research Centre at LSE which is one of the leading centres in Europe for academic research into financial markets.

Said @ Oxford offers Master in Financial Economics. It is a niche course. Those who would target profiles of Economists & Strategists in I Banks, Mutual Funds / Institutional Research and in industry and development finance institutions eg. World Bank, ADB etc should look at this. Bear in mind average age of students in this program in just 23 years so experience people may do well to look at other programs.

IE Madrid also offers a generalist MS Finance program for people with less than 2 years experience.

SDA Bocconi offers Masters in Corporate Finance. It is good for those looking at non- quant, non- investment management careers like careers in I banking and the industry.

ICMA Centre @ Reading also offers a portfoilo of programs albeit smaller than Cass. Decent enough for freshers but people with work ex would do well to look at other programs.

University of Monaco offers three distinct routes for their MSc Finance programs in Private Banking, Private Equity and Fin Engg. I have no idea about the reputation of the program.

Other programs of repute - RSM Erasmus, University of Amsterdam, Exeter, Frankfut School of Finance & Management - are generalist programs and are geared more to local markets and to people starting their careers.
718
MSc / MS Finance in Asia

Asia has fewer Master in Finance programs compared to Europe and most of them are geared more to quant roles.

Hong Kong:
HKUST offers two different MS Finance programs, one focussed on investment management other on quant roles. However both of the are part-time programs. It also offers one of the best Executive Finance programs in the world - Masters in Global Finance in association with NYU Stern. But again it is a part time program.

University of Hong Kong offers a 1 year full time or 2 years part time MS Finance program. The program allows you to specialise in one of the two concentrations - Financial Engg or Risk Management.

CUHK also has a wll regarded two year part time MS Finance program.

Singapore:
NTU offers a well regarded 1 year full time Master in Financial Engg.

SMU offerrs a part time Master in Applied Finance and a Master in Wealth Management. I have no idea about the reputation of the program.



Hope this helped people looking at careers in Finance. However I'd like to point out a few things:
1.) Don't opt for a career in finance simply because of the perception that it offers higher salaries. Those salaries go only to a few people in top schools. Mind you, "a few people in top schools". Rest of the people in finance make roughly the same amount of money as would people in other functional areas. I've seen many non-finance guys switching to finance attracted solely by salaries to only realise later that the pre MS Finance / MBA profile was better.

2.) If you have substantial non-finance work experience (>5 years) look at an MBA rather than a MSc Finance. Practically, it's much difficult to find a mid career non-sales & non-wealth management (which is just a glamourised name for private banking) role in finance. You may need to start from scratch again.
An exception here would be people with experience in
a.) Statistical / Mathematical modelling for pure quant roles
b.) PhDs in Statistics / Mathematics / Physics for pure quant roles
c.) Higher degrees in Agri Sciences or geophysics for agri commodity roles
719

@1431 - Great research and information there! Thanks. Could you share your profile/aspirations with us?

I was planning to apply to LSE MSc Finance & Pvt Equity/Fin & Econ, Said MFE and a bunch of MEM Programs (Stanford, Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke) hoping to take a concentration in Financial Engineering there.

720

@1431,

Thank you for the extensive list. I will be sure to point posters to these 2 posts for more information.

All the best
Baccardisprite

721

10th 71%
12th 63%

BA 60.67%

work exp 14.5 months in Bank..........
*Cash Management- have to manage cash with in limit of branch
*INB officer-Internet Banking Officer- all general operations within branch
*NPA monitoring
*gliff monitoring

*I want to do some course in finance
* willing to work in I-bank, financial firm as Analyst, research rel. job.........
* willing to work in US and Western Europe...........

plzzz suggest me some courses.....

722

Hi
This thread is really a "pathfinder" & I hope your suggestions will drag me out of my issue. I am an Arts graduate with average academics
10th- 78%
12th 65%
BA 59%
I completed my graduation in 2008 and I was forced to join my family business. I want to pursue my career in management but I dont want to go for any B grade business school in India. I have 6.5 at IELTS and I want to go for Msc either in management or in international business from UK.
Plz suggest me what should I do

723
Hi
This thread is really a "pathfinder" & I hope your suggestions will drag me out of my issue. I am an Arts graduate with average academics
10th- 78%
12th 65%
BA 59%
I completed my graduation in 2008 and I was forced to join my family business. I want to pursue my career in management but I dont want to go for any B grade business school in India. I have 6.5 at IELTS and I want to go for Msc either in management or in international business from UK.
Plz suggest me what should I do


Why / How did you feel "forced" to join the family business? Management is a vague word 😃 - specifically what function in business / management would you look for? Why the UK, what makes you think the UK is better for you?

How big is your family's business? How fast is it growing? What opportunities could it possibly offer you?

I can't think of a better management course (with an assured job to boot) than a family business.....

Tell us some more about your circumstances and any of the people on this thread would be able to give valuable advice.

All the best
Baccardisprite
724

Thanx for the reply. We are into fabrication and what we run is a kind of a Fashion House. The business is good but I am not satisfied with what I am doing. I mean to say that its fetching me money but there is no exposure, no scope of growth...its very very "typed". There are few personal reasons too.
I opted for the UK because of 3 reasons-
1- The quality of education
2- I have heard that I can work there for 2 years after I complete my course by extending my Tier 4 Visa ( Though I am not sure of this option much)
3- Few of my friends are there at Leeds, Manchester & Birmingham City Universities and its their recommendation.

I always wanted study either Marketing or International Business but Just because of the family pressure I graduated in Arts so that I could give time to family business, again I wasted my 2 quality years after my graduation in doing what I never wanted. Now some how I have convinced my parents to allow me to study further but I dont want to waste their money by selecting some B Grade college. I cant go for MBA from UK or US
- I have no work ex
- I wont get much time to prepare for GMAT, CAT or any othet exam
I am planning to pursue MSc in International Business, work for 2-3 years and then go for MBA
Please help, its my last opportunity to do what I want

725

Sorry Wrong thread

726

Hi

Sir I need a little guidance from you about my future course of actions.

I want to pursue Doctorate in Marketing Research from abroad.
Work Ex- 30 months in Technical Domain parallel with 16 months Entrepreneurial venture experience( Responsible for Marketing)
B.tech- 72%
12th- 89.6
10th- 87.8
M.Sc. (Applied Psychology)- Pursuing through distance(complete in 2011).

I have resigned from my present job and will start looking for a job in marketing research. I have few friends working in this field who will be guiding me through it.

I consulted a consultant for the same purpose he told me to do masters in marketing research(MMR) from Europe and get two year work permit and after that I could pursue PhD. in same.

But when I gathered more information I found out that I could get into that program without doing masters in same field. But still u need some good experience in that field.

Now I have charted three possible course of actions or back up plans.

1) After gaining job experience in Market research go for Doctorate.
2) After gaining job experience in market research, go for MMR then doctorate.
3) Or in case I fail to secure a seat with fellowship or Financial aid go for FPM programme offered by IIM's.
4) Pursue MBA from IIM's then go for Doctorate.(I might get into one of the IIM's PGP program this year, if lucky!).

After self analyzing the prospects of Getting into reputed doctorate programme and means of getting there, there are three factors that come into play:
1) Capital earned or spent during this 2 years process (Doing MBA or Masters(MMR) will cost me while gaining job experience will help me save some money. 2) Second factor is total time taken to achieve the goal (Doctorate). 3) Thirdly benefits of pursuing doctorate in most stimulating environment and ultimately the outcome.

Given getting into top colleges for that program is extremely difficult. I am not able decide about how to approach my goal.

Please guide me about the best approach given the three factors.
My priority is to get best out of doctorate as that is 4-5 years endeavor.
Also please tell me how to improve my chances i.e. achievements of what kind should be done in near future to get it.

727

these are great options

728
@1431 - Great research and information there! Thanks. Could you share your profile/aspirations with us?

I was planning to apply to LSE MSc Finance & Pvt Equity/Fin & Econ, Said MFE and a bunch of MEM Programs (Stanford, Columbia, Dartmouth, Duke) hoping to take a concentration in Financial Engineering there.


Thanks rust in peace.

I am a finance professional with close to 5 years experience in sell side equity analyst role. My career aspiration is to move to buy side firms in portfolio management / analyst role or to hedge funds.

The programs that you have listed for yourself seem to be quite varied in nature. Skill set required for the program at LSE and at Said are quite different. And again the Fin Engg programs are a world apart from LSE / Said programs. All these would lead to divergent career paths. Do you have a well defined future career path in your mind? Seeing your age I'm inclined to think that perhaps you might not have enough work exposure. If you are in a state of flux you may like to go for a generalist MS Fin program rather than a specialist one as it would give you time to explore and discover you career objectives and goals as you complete your program.
729
@1431,

Thank you for the extensive list. I will be sure to point posters to these 2 posts for more information.

All the best
Baccardisprite


Thanks Baccardisprite.
I've gained much information on the PG forum. It was time I gave back something to PG from which I learned so much.
730
Thanks rust in peace.

I am a finance professional with close to 5 years experience in sell side equity analyst role. My career aspiration is to move to buy side firms in portfolio management / analyst role or to hedge funds.

The programs that you have listed for yourself seem to be quite varied in nature. Skill set required for the program at LSE and at Said are quite different. And again the Fin Engg programs are a world apart from LSE / Said programs. All these would lead to divergent career paths. Do you have a well defined future career path in your mind? Seeing your age I'm inclined to think that perhaps you might not have enough work exposure. If you are in a state of flux you may like to go for a generalist MS Fin program rather than a specialist one as it would give you time to explore and discover you career objectives and goals as you complete your program.


I certainly do see a path, but as you said, it is not too well defined, rather, it is quite hazy. People like you help clearing the smoke to gain a clearer picture :). Would you be kind enough to elaborate on the divergent career paths and skill sets required for those programs?

From whatever little I gather and know, I broadly aim at Investment/Asset Management, as opposed to Investment Banking, M&A; sort of work. I have heard that it is practically impossible to break into IM straight after college, and it is a struggle even after MBA if you do not have relevant work experience. What is your take on this?

I have no work exposure whatsoever - I'm still in my last semester at college (getting degrees in Economics & Electronics/Instrumentation from BITS Pilani). Ideally, I'd like to enter the Finance industry before studying any further, but chances look bleak, and I'd prefer further studies over KPO/Analyst roles which I will most likely get.
731
Thanx for the reply. We are into fabrication and what we run is a kind of a Fashion House. The business is good but I am not satisfied with what I am doing. I mean to say that its fetching me money but there is no exposure, no scope of growth...its very very "typed". There are few personal reasons too.

I opted for the UK because of 3 reasons-
1- The quality of education
2- I have heard that I can work there for 2 years after I complete my course by extending my Tier 4 Visa (Though I am not sure of this option much)
3- Few of my friends are there at Leeds, Manchester & Birmingham City Universities and its their recommendation.

I always wanted study either Marketing or International Business but Just because of the family pressure I graduated in Arts so that I could give time to family business, again I wasted my 2 quality years after my graduation in doing what I never wanted. Now some how I have convinced my parents to allow me to study further but I dont want to waste their money by selecting some B Grade college. I cant go for MBA from UK or US

- I have no work ex
- I wont get much time to prepare for GMAT, CAT or any othet exam

I am planning to pursue MSc in International Business, work for 2-3 years and then go for MBA. Please help, its my last opportunity to do what I want


About your above points on the UK:

1. The quality of education is considered good in universities that meet the following criteria: they have the Royal Charter to award Masters Degrees, they are listed on the UK's Good Universities Guide (Top 40-50) published annually by The Times (www.timesonline.co.uk), and are well-ranked and regarded in both professional & research driven programs. As long as you're going to one of these universities - yes the quality is good. The Top 20 will normally be considered A-Grade & will score highly on the UK's RAE (Research Assessment Exercise) - 4 or higher out of a maximum of 6.

2. Make sure you read the UK's Student Visa to Work Visa rules everyday! They've been constantly changing & tweaking rules to make them unfriendly to non-EU entrants to the UK. Even if this is possible, the UK employment market is pretty bad right now. Finance is still struggling, and marketing is a career available most likely to those people who have previous experience in the UK, an industry strong in the UK (in need of marketing skills) or those who many years of experience in the markeging field outside the UK that are transferable to the UK.... Don't assume that studying in a UK university (even a good one) makes you automatically competitive for a job out there (however easy it might be to get / change visa) - that's a misguided approach.

3. Do ask them how their job search is going! Their answers, and I hope they're having a positive experience - should provide you with more insight.

Instead of doing an M.Sc In International Business (vague?) and working for 2-3 years, it would be a better option to look for a job outside of your family business, gain some skills - then go direct for an MBA. An M.Sc in International Business isn't academically very different from a generalist MBA.

Apologies if not what you want to hear, but hope that helps you go forth.
All the best
Baccardisprite