International educational options beyond the MBA

The best ones for MEM:

The following six programs are members of the Master of Engineering Management Programs Consortium:

  1. The Master of Engineering Management Program at Northwestern University
  2. The Master of Engineering Management Program at Dartmouth College
  3. The Master of Engineering Management Program at Duke University
  4. The Master of Engineering in Engineering Management Program at Cornell University
  5. The Master of Science in Management Science & Engineering Program at Stanford University
  6. The System Design and Management (SDM) Master's Degree in Engineering and Management at Massachusetts Institute of Technology

I I have been waitlisted for the MFE (MSc in Financial Economics) program in Oxford, SBS...
Can someone throw light on what are the conversion chances.. Does anyone know abt the waitlisted stats.. SBS FAQ page says the school does not operate waiting lists.. Any inputs would be helpful..

Dear Baccardi Sprite,

I came across your posts recently, and I have been very impressed with your balanced responses to everyone. Thank you for your yeoman service to the community.

I would like to ask you a question. I have about 9 years of work ex with the last four being in IT Marketing and Sales Operations. I recently had a job offer for INR 21 Lakhs in Bangalore that i turned down since I seem to have developed an aversion to IT jobs. I find them to be stifling my creativity.

I request you to let me know if you are aware of ways and means that people adopt to try and figure out their passion in life, the work that they come to love and cherish. Is this a utopian ideal to chase one's passion, or, as steve jobs said, it is important to "stay hungry, stay foolish"?

I find myself at a crossroads in my career, a sort of mid-life crisis, since I have turned down a brilliant job offer with a very large company, and I seem to have no alternative career ideas in mind. Am I lost? If yes, how do i figure this out?

Sorry if this is too vague and lacking in focus. Curious to know your thoughts in this regard. Thanks in advance for the same.


Philosophical request, indicating your requirements for guidance may be more than I am intellectually qualified to give :-).

I don't think you're lost (yet), but guess you're simply looking for a professional "something" that wakes you up and keeps you going for the next 30 years (assuming you're about 30 now). "Something" could be a professional career you want to enjoy over the next 10-20-30 years; a goal you might want to reach in about 10-20-30 years; an activity / project(s) / initiative that you have enjoyed so much that you wouldn't mind doing that professionally over a longer term (ok... rockstar might be slightly difficult :-)).

That "something" (which you need to figure out) could be enabled by a combination of a few things:

- Current (& short term developing) skills, that you can apply & transfer
- Additional skills / experience / education you need to make the jump to that "something"; what ever that is decides how big a jump you need to make
- Where you specifically can get that education (if required per above point).

I'd suggest taking someone you know / love / trust and sit on a secluded spot on a beach by the ECR, and spend a few hours thinking about the "something"; come back and post - after which I could give you more specific advice.

All the best
Baccardisprite
Hi,
My profile: Completed my Bachelors of Pharmacy and currently working in production/manufacturing department of a Pharmaceutical company.
Interested in doing MBA in Operations/supply chain. Please name top institutes in India as well as in abroad which accepts science background graduates.


Look at the US News and World Report Rankings of US Universities and look for the Top departments of Industrial Engineering / Operations Research. Then take the same list and shorten it to those Universities that also have a strong business school. Start there!

All the best
Baccardisprite
I I have been waitlisted for the MFE (MSc in Financial Economics) program in Oxford, SBS...
Can someone throw light on what are the conversion chances.. Does anyone know abt the waitlisted stats.. SBS FAQ page says the school does not operate waiting lists.. Any inputs would be helpful..


Just let them know you're interested to stay on the waiting list, and update them with any professional developments in your life that you can connect with your future career and with the MFE. Apart from that, you can't do very much.

All the best
Baccardisprite
I I have been waitlisted for the MFE (MSc in Financial Economics) program in Oxford, SBS...
Can someone throw light on what are the conversion chances.. Does anyone know abt the waitlisted stats.. SBS FAQ page says the school does not operate waiting lists.. Any inputs would be helpful..


Dear Arun .I am also an aspirant for MFE program at Saiid.Could you please PM/Post your profile and GRE score ,it will be very helpful for aspirants like me .
Also throw some light on the institutes which you have applied.
plz do reply
Dear Arun .I am also an aspirant for MFE program at Saiid.Could you please PM/Post your profile and GRE score ,it will be very helpful for aspirants like me .
Also throw some light on the institutes which you have applied.
plz do reply


Vishwadeep,

My profile: 2.5 yrs in Analytics, CGPA - 8.7
GRE: 333 (q168,v165,AWA 4), TOEFL: 110

Other schools applied: Duke, Dartmouth, CMU, Stanford, LSE
Admitted to Duke, Rejected by all others..

Don't know if this helps anyone...I've seen lot of people enquiring about Quantitive finance programs.....If you are one of them have a look at this one
Master of Quantitative Finance Faculty of Mathematics University of Waterloo
Well I am doing a Masters degree in actuarial science here.....and the faculty in Quant finance is really good.....I have few courses taught by professors from that department......I am really impressed by the faculty and program curriculum(don't know why I applied for actuarial science here :)......ofcourse this is good too !!!!)

i have heard some EU nations like germany/norway/denmark offers education at low cost even for international students? is this true?

Hi Baccardi Sprite,

Can you plz help/guide me ? I have a dilemma of choice between ISB and HEC Paris admits. More so, as ISB starts on 14th April. :(

Being an Indian, I am so looking forward for international experience but am concerned about fee at HEC vis-a-vis ISB. Will HEC prove to be better choice in the long run, considering I am interested in working in any country out of Canada/Europe/North America/Dubai/Singapore/Hongkong/India?

Or does ISB have some more advantages/disadvantages that I can-not see? Pl let me know if you need to know more to advise me.

Hi Baccardi Sprite,

Can you plz help/guide me ? I have a dilemma of choice between ISB and HEC Paris admits. More so, as ISB starts on 14th April. :(

Being an Indian, I am so looking forward for international experience but am concerned about fee at HEC vis-a-vis ISB. Will HEC prove to be better choice in the long run, considering I am interested in working in any country out of Canada/Europe/North America/Dubai/Singapore/Hongkong/India?

Or does ISB have some more advantages/disadvantages that I can-not see? Pl let me know if you need to know more to advise me.


Apologies for the delay responding to you as I've been way too busy at work the last few weeks.

HEC has a few advantages - Paris (Western EU Location), strong alumni network especially in French HQ'd multinationals, and a strong reputation as a Grand Ecole' in the overall Francophone geographical zone. Anecdotal conversations with HEC MBAs however (particularly non-EU MBAs at the school) have revealed a less than rosy picture around career opportunities for non-EU MBAs graduating from HEC. Qualitatively - not many opportunities visible outside the France / Germany / UK circle; not a very strong career services office in terms of training MBAs for an effective job search in a challenging economic environment; not much to offer to MBAs who're not business / native fluent in French etc. One of the greatest measurement points for a b-school that calls itself "global" - is it's global reach in terms of career opportunities that MBAs can access (on campus or self-directed / off-campus); this criterion becomes even more important in a poor economy (& job market). Academically & Interactively, HEC is still a very very good school. But that 3rd aspect around career development (most important for MBAs) is where HEC lacks compared to INSEAD, LBS, IMD or (more recently) Cambridge / Oxford / IESE / IE etc. In other words, HEC is probably NOT the most competitive MBA for it's (currently hyper-competitive) Western EU or Global job market!

I would recommend to hedge your bets and go to ISB, as it's a top notch school offering excellent access to its primary job market (India/Asia), through a great career services office, academic and all round interactive experience. It will be a path of lower resistance to get into the Indian / Asian arm of a Fortune 200, then build your career with experience, competence and skills in your chosen function / industry after the MBA.

All the best
Baccardisprite

Hi Baccardisprite,

At the outset thank you for this Informative and Professional Thread.

Below are my queries for which I am looking for some clarity. You may choose to answer some/ all of the questions.
I am looking forward only for US MBA/ MS programmes as I target to settle down there in the long run.

My Short Profile.

Education - B.Tech - Mech - NIT and MBA - Operations - IIT. Total 5.7 years of overall experience. about 3.7 Years of Post MBA experience.
CGA- around 3.2 for B.Tech , 3.8 for MBA.
Current Job - Supply Chain Management Consultant - in US headquartered Consulting firm .
Worked in Industrial Verticals like - Auto , FMCG , Semi-Conductor.
Worked on Assignments In - India , Germany and US.
Travel - Have traveled extensively across India (near about 10 states), Europe ( 7 countries) and West coast of US.
Languages known - English , Hindi , Tamil , Basics of French, Learning German.
Extra curricular - Decent Enough Ranging from College cultural, Quiz and Oratorical Competitions.
Community Work - Work as a Career consultant for Government School students on weekends.

GMAT - I am about to Start my preparation from Now on. Unable to Judge my likely score at this stage. But Targeting an expected score of 710 +

1..Kindly do an initial assessment of my Profile and let me know how fit am I , for an MBA in any top 20 B school in US.

2. This is my second MBA - so likely treatment towards my candidature from this b schools - what strategies I must use in my Essays to cover up this.

5.Likely Accepted GMAT score in any of the Top 20 Institutes - (Number range/ Specific school Vs GMAT score)

6.The MBA preparation cycle that I need to follow - right from GMAT preparation , Mocks, Application , submission , Interviews. Likely time period and Timing for all the above.

7. I am planning to give myself one more year for GMAT preparation and building my Profile strong - Likely stuffs I must concentrate on - career wise / extra - curricular wise - so that i can built a compelling candidature.

8. Likely cost of MBA - how much I can cover form Indian Loan , Must i take a Loan in US with a co-signor, amount of Money I can raise from scholarships and Aids available in University , and Part time jobs/assistant ships - for covering living costs.

9. How is the Job market post MBA in US and your future predication for at least next 3 years.

10. Usual trend on RoI / Pay back period for MBA in top 20.

11 Comparison of MBA against options of Pursuing a MS - in Management studies / Supply chain Management form top 10 B Schools.

12. Insights into Policy Schools - Masters in Public Policy Managements in Top B schools - Job scope post completion

Awaiting your Valuable Suggestions and Guidance.


5.Likely Accepted GMAT score in any of the Top 20 Institutes - (Number range/ Specific school Vs GMAT score)

6.The MBA preparation cycle that I need to follow - right from GMAT preparation , Mocks, Application , submission , Interviews. Likely time period and Timing for all the above.

8. Likely cost of MBA - how much I can cover form Indian Loan , Must i take a Loan in US with a co-signor, amount of Money I can raise from scholarships and Aids available in University , and Part time jobs/assistant ships - for covering living costs.

10. Usual trend on RoI / Pay back period for MBA in top 20.



I've deleted the profile-based questions because baccardi would be the best person to answer that.

Other than that, you are really asking to be spoon-fed everything and that's a tall ask.

5. All the top-20 colleges list their median and average GMAT scores, along with GPAs, work-ex, base-salary, industries and M/F breakdown.

6. There's a whole thread for this - http://www.pagalguy.com/discussions/gmat-query-center-2010-13-25055904

8. Again, cost is indicated on the college website. Unfortunately you havent mentioned what you want to study but if its SCM not all of the top-20 only would be helpful. Some outside of the top-20 would perhaps be just as good. MIT has a great MS program but i'm not sure if that's the best option for you. Your choice of college will dictate cost of fees and living expenses.Indian banks give you 20Lakhs but you should count on being able to foot most of the expenses yourself. A lot of the colleges lost their bank-sponsors in the crash of 2009 and not all have gotten them back.
Attending a top-20 program almost guarantees you won't have the time to work a part-time job. The work-load is rather intense.

10. This is the tricky part - there is almost no universally accepted answer. What consensus exists is for the payment of the student loan -- 5-7years.
I've deleted the profile-based questions because baccardi would be the best person to answer that.

....



Hi Neo,

Thank you so much for your reply and Information on Bank Loans.
Ya, I am doing my research simultaneously and was looking for insiders information apart from the infos i get from websites.
Your thread on GMAT query is awesome. One of the Best Threads, here.
Hi Baccardisprite,

1..Kindly do an initial assessment of my Profile and let me know how fit am I , for an MBA in any top 20 B school in US.

2...
12. Insights into Policy Schools - Masters in Public Policy Managements in Top B schools - Job scope post completion

Awaiting your Valuable Suggestions and Guidance.


Hi there,

Good profile + solid, including international experience. I will assume you hope you have enjoyed good career progression evidenced by - frontal interaction with clients, promotions and leadership responsibility (including leading teams & engagements with clients).

1. Provided you get a good GMAT score (710+ would be useful), and are able to articulate a credible reason for your MBA (largely around your career objectives) I think you have a good shot at the US Top 20. YOu don't seem like the classic IT guy, but your profile isn't so unique that schools would find it challenging to help you get placed after the MBA. So without underestimating the challenge of or competition (you're Indian)getting into a top school, consider your-self as being in a slightly less difficult position than another IT with a classic IT profile.

Since you haven't stated a career objective in your post, I won't get into which specific schools you will be most suitable for. Be more specific with your career goals, and we can discuss specific schools. Broadly however - you seem to have a bank of functional / client interactive skills multiple industries should value; so as long as you're flexible (industry & geography), diligent and willing to hustle (y'know with visa issues and all that), I don't think you'll have a problem getting companies to notice you / your CV.

2. Plenty of Indians do 2nd MBAs, articulate your career goals well, and specifically rationalize why a second MBA is required for you to meet those career goals - and you should be good. Try talking to MartianonEarth about this, he has a lot of experience advising Indian candidates seeking second MBAs.

5,6,8 --> Neo2000 has answered you.

7. Don't start any extra-curricular activity just to improve your profile, which is professionally quite good already; do it only if you have genuine passion for that activity. Instead focus on building or enhancing some of the skills / competencies that future employers will value most. Engagement Management / Leadership, French / German to Business fluency (i.e able to conduct negotiations / agreements in those languages) with clients or internal / external business partners.

9. The job market in the west is likely to remain challenging for the next 3-5 years. As a result immigration / work-permit policies for non-citizens or non-EU graduates will be unfriendly. It's pure economics. It's not impossible to get a job in this scenario, but as mentioned, you will need to be flexible, need to prepare yourself for a job search within & off-campus, and need to spread your search globally to ensure you have at least a few options. Therefore when choosing your schools, target the schools that will have strong career services departments (particularly for the functional / industry roles you target), professional clubs in the area you target (e.g healthcare / operations / consulting etc), and strong elective curriculums if your "industry goal" is rather specific. A top-20 school, INSEAD or LBS is likely to also have globally spread alumni whom you can access for specific support during the job search. Choose your school carefully, don't get into a safety school mindset.

10. Depends on what you do, where you go, how you're compensated and (most importantly) how you live your life. But typically working in the US, living a moderate lifestyle and diligently paying back any financial obligations - you're probably looking at 6-10 years.

11. You don't appear to need any further specialist / functional education in the field of SCM / operations. Forget the MS, you've moved well beyond.

12. Largely into policy making bodies, think tanks, NGOs, government roles. Best schools are Harvard-Kennedy, JHU - Nitschze, Tufts / Fletcher, Columbia / SEPA, MIT Sloan / TPP (more technology / ops / engineering policy issues).... Salaries on average tend to be a "bit" lower (because the experience profile of candidates is lower), and these people, barring exceptions, don't target your classic MBA jobs. If you have a passion for policy - sure go ahead, but be very certain of what you want out of a career before thinking about these schools. Another option is to do a dual degree MBA/MPA, but note these typically take 3 full years, and cost at least 50% more than just a classic MBA. You might want to also think about Wharton's Lauder Program, which is their MBA + MA in Policy which takes 2 full calender years and costs Wharton's Tuition + $30,000. Program comes with a language track (Hindi being the most recent), students typically have access to both the classic MBA jobs as well options for Lauder grads....

All the best
Baccardisprite

Hi Sir

I have a very average profile..and i am very serious about doing mba/ms.

10th- 52%cbse
12th- 61%cbse
grad- 66% Univ of delhi correspondence after a gap of 3 years....

Work ex- After schooling i have played Cricket 3 years for Subhash club....
and 3 years have worked on my own family business garments store....
Practically its 0 year work exp...

With this profile getting into decent colleges in india is next to impossible, so i started dreaming about gmat to study in USA.
But the dream shattered soon once i got to know the expences..I can't afford it..

Recently got to know about twinning programmes where in a student can study 2nd year of masters in usa and its comparatively cheaper...

So my question is is it worth to opt for such programmes and then study in us?

Hi,

I currently have 2 years of full-time work experience in IT consulting and now I wish to quit and pursue my interest in the non-profit sector by assisting in their marketing, promotions, fundraising, and creative content writing activities but only on a part-time basis. Along with this, side by side I hope to work on my MBA/MIS applications for Fall 2013. In case I decide to continue working in this sector for another year, will the 2 years of IT experience + non-profit experience help me in my MBA admissions?

The non-profit sector may not be my ultimate career goal, but it is something that I would definitely like to be a part of if even for a short duration of time. If this I can bring out in my applications, would it go against me? Or will it add to my existing profile?

Additionally, since I will quit my current firm by June end and start my applications for Fall 2013, I will have only 3 months to contribute to a non-profit org. If i like the work I might pursue it. But I really want to do my MBA/MIS as soon as possible.

Please advise.

Thanks.

Hi baccardisprite,

I currently have 2 years of full-time work experience in IT consulting and now I wish to quit and pursue my interest in the non-profit sector by assisting in their marketing, promotions, fundraising, and creative content writing activities but only on a part-time basis. Along with this, side by side I hope to work on my MBA/MIS applications for Fall 2013. In case I decide to continue working in this sector for another year, will the 2 years of IT experience + non-profit experience help me in my MBA admissions?

The non-profit sector may not be my ultimate career goal, but it is something that I would definitely like to be a part of if even for a short duration of time. If this I can bring out in my applications, would it go against me? Or will it add to my existing profile?

Additionally, since I will quit my current firm by June end and start my applications for Fall 2013, I will have only 3 months to contribute to a non-profit org. If i like the work I might pursue it. But I really want to do my MBA/MIS as soon as possible.

Please advise.

Thanks.

Hi Sir

I have a very average profile..and i am very serious about doing mba/ms.

10th- 52%cbse
12th- 61%cbse
grad- 66% Univ of delhi correspondence after a gap of 3 years....

Work ex- After schooling i have played Cricket 3 years for Subhash club....
and 3 years have worked on my own family business garments store....
Practically its 0 year work exp...

With this profile getting into decent colleges in india is next to impossible, so i started dreaming about gmat to study in USA.
But the dream shattered soon once i got to know the expences..I can't afford it..

Recently got to know about twinning programmes where in a student can study 2nd year of masters in usa and its comparatively cheaper...

So my question is is it worth to opt for such programmes and then study in us?



I will be glad if someone can reply on this! Also what are the Job profile options available after doing MS in computer science?

Thanks

10th- 52%cbse
12th- 61%cbse
grad- 66% Univ of delhi correspondence after a gap of 3 years....

Work ex- After schooling i have played Cricket 3 years for Subhash club....
and 3 years have worked on my own family business garments store....
Practically its 0 year work exp...

With this profile getting into decent colleges in india is next to impossible, so i started dreaming about gmat to study in USA.
But the dream shattered soon once i got to know the expences..I can't afford it..

Recently got to know about twinning programmes where in a student can study 2nd year of masters in usa and its comparatively cheaper...

So my question is is it worth to opt for such programmes and then study in us?


Guess you could count working for your family's garment store as full time experience, but you'll need to qualify and quantify that by the difference you have made to the business with your contributions (increased sales by x%, reduced costs by y%, expanded product lines etc.). Overall, I think you need to patiently put in at least another 4-5 years of work experience, either:

1. in your family business, helping it record sustained growth in revenues and profits over this period. or

2. Get a job and achieve functional experience over a period, achieve success and career progress.

Whoever employs you out of an MBA or an MS will employ you first for the skills, experience and competence you bring to the table, then for the degree you have studied. If you don't have much to offer professionally to any post MBA/MS employer now, how is an MBA/MS now going to help you?

Don't feel discouraged, but please do take a long term view and seek advice again from people, but with a clear understanding of what you have done (e.g with your father's business) and what you want to do with your career. Without that clarity, an MBA/MS is an escape, and not a successful one.

All the best
Baccardisprite