International educational options beyond the MBA

MBA
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Hi Bacardisprite (nice name, nice combo!) and other contributors! I've just spent the last ~hour reading your entire thread and I'd like to thank you for your massive, massive commitment! I'm new to this forum, so please overlook any rookie errors. I am 21/F and an ABCD (where A = Australia). I completed my undergrad last year (in Accounting/Finance) - was at university on full scholarship and got good grades. School grades are excellent. Whilst at Uni, I worked with a top IB and a top accounting firm on paid internships for a total of 18 months. Successfully ran a small manufacturing business for about 12 months in my second year. Also, was part of the University faculty, peer-tutoring a few first year subjects. In terms of ECA, I've done a lot of classical dance, debating, public speaking, sport, ngo work, aiesec, etc.
I'm currently working in management consulting (not the big 3, though, but top tier i work in performance management consulting rather than strategy-by choice!) and pursuing my CA. I should be qualified by the end of 2010, after which I will have 2+ years of experience also.
After this, I'd like to get a Masters qualification and continue to do work in management consulting, but in India (personal/family reasons). However, all the research I've done so far points to one direction - going down the food chain (in terms of work and pay). The quality of work that our firm's Indian centres do (no offence to ANYONE, I think I'm just very very ignorant - having never lived or worked there previously) is a lot lower than what I get a chance to sink my teeth into. Oftentimes, they are simply preparing the research and models for our analysis.
SO, seeing as this is my first avenue for help (I don't know many people in India!) - do you know if this assumption that I am making is true/false? Could you please direct me to the right forums/areas? What Masters qualification (if any/India/Abroad) will best propel me into the true management consulting market in India?
I'll be taking my GMATs late this year/early next year so that I can apply for programs next year.
I'm so sorry if this is SO SO silly. Thank you! V


Thankyou for your positive feedback to the forum.

With a finance focused degree + a CA qualification, I wonder if you really need more business focused education as much as you need experience?!
Have you validated your opinion (of the quality of work in India) with a colleague or senior manager in your firm?

Your credentials seem excellent, and I don't see why you can't get into a Top-tier with established (client facing) practice in India. Given your academic credentials (scholarship etc) and age you should be able crack the CAT! You'd be 24 at graduation from an IIM (talking 2-year PGP) and perfectly positioned (with a CA to boot) for a consulting role with a top-tier firm in India, doing insight driven client-facing (and not research driven back-office) work.

Cheerz & Good luck
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Thanks for wishing me luck! The schools you mentioned are damn good.However (read alas!) I would not be in the mid 80% of the GMAT scores at these schools.So I think the prospects of getting an admit are very very bleak .Even if I open myself to any place outside India (I will try to manage the expenses), be that IE in spain ,NUS in singapore, to a top15 school in US.Also US programs are 2 year ones.Though I know with this score I am asking for the moon and looking for the undeserved. Another concern is that I am looking at the higher than prevailing levels of role and responsibilities (I am a Senior manager now).However with a change in specialization ie Finance /Strategy I dont think firms will give higher than prevailing roles to the uninitiated like me.
Is there a body that tells us very seriously how we stand as a complete package to the schools we aim for or conducts mock PIs /assessments something very simillar to what happens in actual.Have I stepped on a good business idea or is this happening out there.I know of shows ,talks ,seminars, online sessions and gatherings but thats is not the answer for all people.I know of some shops like career launcher /******** /princeton review in India .But my experience in Delhi has not been good at all.Guys, Bacardisprite -Please feel free to share your views. Thanks once again.


For someone with 13+ years of solid experience and professional success, you seem articulate but sound woefully underconfident.

With 13.5 years, your not going to get into a management development program with 24-27 year olds. You can't be interviewing for the same jobs. You'll need to go inveriably off campus to find your job at an apropriate level of seniority. You'll therefore need a school with an extremely strong alumni base that you can access for contacts, networking and interviews. You'll need a career services that has both the street credibility to open doors for you, and be able to train you to access jobs (80% of which are never advertized) through building networks and communicating. Such high quality and customized coaching to help you land your job is what a top school offers, and what a less-than-top school will be inadequate at.

As for the GMAT - your verbal seems to be an issue. Search the forum for a user named "Psychodementia", and send him a personal message asking him for help. Do note his help won't come free and you'll need to travel south of where you are.

If you're truly determined, willing to take the plunge and can get some targeted time off from work, try an Executive MBA. These are not MBA-lites! They're true blue degrees offered by the same schools that offer full time degrees.

Cheerz
131

Hi baccardisprite

i have an offer from LSE for their 2 yrs MSc Economics program. I have done my undergrad engineering from BITS (India) and would like to get into a good MBA school later on.

How good is the economics masters from LSE? the fees is pretty steep... thats why i am also looking at the ROI.

I have admits in MS (electrical engg) as well from cornell/columbia/penn state/dartmouth.

Considering the fact that i am most likely going to try for a good MBA program later, where shud i enroll right now? (Economics or EE).

thanks.

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Hi Bacc. I need a help from you I am working in Market Research Company from Last 3 Years My work ex. includes working in SAS,SPSS, Wincross,ppt CRM etc. Now I wish to Pursue my higher studies which involves analytics factor Infact I want to go in research in same area. Kindly guide me regarding some good courses or master's degree that suits my work ex.

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Hi baccardisprite

i have an offer from LSE for their 2 yrs MSc Economics program. I have done my undergrad engineering from BITS (India) and would like to get into a good MBA school later on.

How good is the economics masters from LSE? the fees is pretty steep... thats why i am also looking at the ROI.

I have admits in MS (electrical engg) as well from cornell/columbia/penn state/dartmouth.

Considering the fact that i am most likely going to try for a good MBA program later, where shud i enroll right now? (Economics or EE).

thanks.


Kushagra,

LSE in my opinion is easily one of the best in the world for economics and also the best in Europe/Asia Pacific..... The degree will give u good visibility to work in the London financial area. Also if your career interests post MBA is IB/Consulting Id definitely suggest you take up LSE ahead of an MS in EE...
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sudhanshu25 Says
Hi Bacc. I need a help from you I am working in Market Research Company from Last 3 Years My work ex. includes working in SAS,SPSS, Wincross,ppt CRM etc. Now I wish to Pursue my higher studies which involves analytics factor Infact I want to go in research in same area. Kindly guide me regarding some good courses or master's degree that suits my work ex.


You could think of a masters in statistics/mathematics and subsequently move into a PhD program in the same field or even operations research/strategy....
135
Hi baccardisprite

i have an offer from LSE for their 2 yrs MSc Economics program. I have done my undergrad engineering from BITS (India) and would like to get into a good MBA school later on. How good is the economics masters from LSE? the fees is pretty steep... thats why i am also looking at the ROI. I have admits in MS (electrical engg) as well from cornell/columbia/penn state/dartmouth.

Considering the fact that i am most likely going to try for a good MBA program later, where shud i enroll right now? (Economics or EE).
thanks.


You haven't really mentioned what you want to do professionally. Is it to work in industry (manufacturing, precision engineering) or in financial services, consulting, economics or related field?

Tell us that, and we can advise valuably. Educational quality wise, you can't really go wrong either with LSE or with the Engineering Schools you mentioned. In fact - going to one of the latter group (Cornell best known) might offer some advantages....

Cheerz
136
sudhanshu25 Says
Hi Bacc. I need a help from you I am working in Market Research Company from Last 3 Years My work ex. includes working in SAS,SPSS, Wincross,ppt CRM etc. Now I wish to Pursue my higher studies which involves analytics factor Infact I want to go in research in same area. Kindly guide me regarding some good courses or master's degree that suits my work ex.


I'd agree with Aragon's advice. Perhaps a Master's in one of:

- Quantitative finance
- Advanced Statistical & Research Methods
- Computational Finance
- Financial Engineering
- advanced analytics
- Statistics &/or statistical Finance
- Financial Economics or Econometrics

any one of which you might want to take to Ph.D level. You could boost your credentials with a CFA. The best programs in the field of analytics and quantitative computing (whatever their application) would be in the US. Princeton (2 year Master of Finance), Carnegie Mellon (Quantitative computing), Georgia-Tech, MIT - Sloan (coupled with MIT's Engineering Systems Division), Stanford (Management Science or related), Haas-Berkeley (MFE). UK Schools run some very good programs concentrating on Quantitative and Qualitative Research Methods (they call them MRes programs I think). All great programs, both at Masters and Doctoral levels.
Think about what you want to apply research to, as research by itself is a vague term and broad field.

Good Luck
137

thank you for your inputs.

i donot see myself working towards a PhD in EE in the future. I am more interested in working in the industry (also want to do a MBA from a top institute).
I am in a dilemma because, the LSE economics course is known to be very rigorous. Since I donot have any prior economics exposure, will I be able to gain the maximum out of LSE? Another concern is the steep fees of LSE (over a period of 2 years).

LSE has not given any funding yet. I hope there are RA/TA positions at LSE that can help in off setting the financial burden.

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thank you for your inputs.

i donot see myself working towards a PhD in EE in the future. I am more interested in working in the industry (also want to do a MBA from a top institute).
I am in a dilemma because, the LSE economics course is known to be very rigorous. Since I donot have any prior economics exposure, will I be able to gain the maximum out of LSE? Another concern is the steep fees of LSE (over a period of 2 years).

LSE has not given any funding yet. I hope there are RA/TA positions at LSE that can help in off setting the financial burden.


Hello Kushagra,

I believe you have an admission for the 2 yr Economics program. I have an offer from LSE too and from whatever interactions I have had with the department, the 2 yr program gives you sufficient time to cope up with the rigors of an LSE degree, even for a person with absolutely no background in Economics... LSE certainly is very expensive, but I believe you may be eligible for RA positions after your first year. You could confirm this with the department. It might help to identify specific topics in Economics that interest you from a research perspective. This will certainly help when approaching the professors for RA positions. Also, depending on your performance in the first year, you might be eligible for the graduate support scheme in your second year or for a variety of studentships/assistantships LSE provides annually.

Having said that, LSE is a hardcore academic institution(something on the lines of Princeton). So it might again be better to proceed to a Phd program soon after you complete your MSc.

HK
139
thank you for your inputs.

i donot see myself working towards a PhD in EE in the future. I am more interested in working in the industry (also want to do a MBA from a top institute). I am in a dilemma because, the LSE economics course is known to be very rigorous. Since I donot have any prior economics exposure, will I be able to gain the maximum out of LSE? Another concern is the steep fees of LSE (over a period of 2 years). LSE has not given any funding yet. I hope there are RA/TA positions at LSE that can help in off setting the financial burden.


If it's industry - would recommend a top Engineering program in EE versus LSE for reasons below:

- One of the EE programs mentioned will prove just as rigorous if not more compared to LSE. Academic quality tops.

- In any one of the EE programs you will have the opportunity to both intern for the summer and take certificate level courses in business oriented subjects like Finance, economics Accounting and Marketing, by cross-registering in the university's business school (for a small additional cost) or within their pure-science departments (you can't do the other way round in LSE)

- An EE Program (my opinion), coupled with targeted x-registered courses probably gives you broader functional opportunities across several industries to look at for a future career (core or precision engineering, healthcare & life sciences, diagnostics, supply chain management or even consulting). It gives you an opportunity to build a very strong techno-commercial base + several years of experience in industry, which you can leverage after an MBA program 5-6 years down the line - i.e attraction to future employers will increase manifold. After this crisis - financial services will probably never be viewed in the same vein again. So you might want to boost skills in a field considered anyway more tangible and socio -economically valuable (in terms of innovation and growth), where your skills and experiences will be applicable therefore sought for the next 40-50 years - whatever the economic environment.

- You probably have greater chances of a TA / RA / GA in a US school than with a UK School.

- Your choices in EE seem top notch. Cornell is (or is close to) an Ivy league University in Engineering, both with competent business schools and economics departments. Dartmouth / Thayer gives you access to Tuck business school - a US Top 10. Columbia's engineering is less well known than its business school, but not a bad choice anyway. You're not likely to go wrong.

Good luck. You have some great educational choices - stepping stones to a great career.
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thank you for your inputs.

i donot see myself working towards a PhD in EE in the future. I am more interested in working in the industry (also want to do a MBA from a top institute).
I am in a dilemma because, the LSE economics course is known to be very rigorous. Since I donot have any prior economics exposure, will I be able to gain the maximum out of LSE? Another concern is the steep fees of LSE (over a period of 2 years).

LSE has not given any funding yet. I hope there are RA/TA positions at LSE that can help in off setting the financial burden.

If it's industry - would recommend a top Engineering program in EE versus LSE for reasons below:

- One of the EE programs mentioned will prove just as rigorous if not more compared to LSE. Academic quality tops.

- In any one of the EE programs you will have the opportunity to both intern for the summer and take certificate level courses in business oriented subjects like Finance, economics Accounting and Marketing, by cross-registering in the university's business school (for a small additional cost) or within their pure-science departments (you can't do the other way round in LSE)


I am not too sure of this. From whatever I understand, any course that you need to take outside your home unit has to be approved by a program director and he/she will do so only if the course you want to register contributes to the objectives of the MS program. You can always register for these courses if you don want credit for them in your MS program, in which case I doubt if the courses will even appear in your transcript... Please confirm this with any current students at any of the eng schools you mentioned



- An EE Program (my opinion), coupled with targeted x-registered courses probably gives you broader functional opportunities across several industries to look at for a future career (core or precision engineering, healthcare & life sciences, diagnostics, supply chain management or even consulting). It gives you an opportunity to build a very strong techno-commercial base + several years of experience in industry, which you can leverage after an MBA program 5-6 years down the line - i.e attraction to future employers will increase manifold.


Spot on... It definitely gives you an edge over the economics program and opens a lot more doors for you... But the program you do ultimately depends on which industry you want to be a part of...


After this crisis - financial services will probably never be viewed in the same vein again.So you might want to boost skills in a field considered anyway more tangible and socio -economically valuable (in terms of innovation and growth), where your skills and experiences will be applicable therefore sought for the next 40-50 years - whatever the economic environment.

- You probably have greater chances of a TA / RA / GA in a US school than with a UK School.


I would agree with him on most of the other UK Schools, but LSE as far as my opinion goes runs very much like a US school.. Also a large economics dept should give you enough opportunities for TA/RA...


- Your choices in EE seem top notch. Cornell is (or is close to) an Ivy league University in Engineering, both with competent business schools and economics departments. Dartmouth / Thayer gives you access to Tuck business school - a US Top 10. Columbia's engineering is less well known than its business school, but not a bad choice anyway. You're not likely to go wrong.

Good luck. You have some great educational choices - stepping stones to a great career.


Completely agree with bacc on most of the counts.. I guess the key here is the industry you would like to go to post Masters....

Good luck...

HK
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hi baccardisprite,
need ur advice on this! i am an electrical engineer working in the IT industry for almost 4+ years now. IT has never been my cup of tea..& am more keen on pursuing higher studies in finance to make a career shift to the finance domain. now, with the finance industry in a downturn..what would be the viable options for me at this stage? i had considered financial engineering at one point, but did not go ahead after the fall of the famed i-banks last year!! will an MBA in finance help me at this stage..especially with so many years of IT workex or wud it better to try out the CFA option? let me know..! thanx in advance.....!


cheers

142
hi baccardisprite,
need ur advice on this! i am an electrical engineer working in the IT industry for almost 4+ years now. IT has never been my cup of tea..& am more keen on pursuing higher studies in finance to make a career shift to the finance domain. now, with the finance industry in a downturn..what would be the viable options for me at this stage? i had considered financial engineering at one point, but did not go ahead after the fall of the famed i-banks last year!! will an MBA in finance help me at this stage..especially with so many years of IT workex or wud it better to try out the CFA option? let me know..! thanx in advance.....!
cheers


Given the state of the financial services industry and it's immediate to short term future, I recommend you take a course that straddles both finance and engineering subjects. It offers an opportunity to get into the finance field should things improve in the short term, yet gives you another route into a different industry where you can apply your (financial or non-financial education should finance not happen for you. I admire the passion for finance, but keep your options open.... I would strongly suggest something in the field of Industrial & Systems Engineering / Operations Research / Technology Management / Financial Engineering / Management Science (taking a Quant Finance heavy elective group).

Pure Quantitative finance programs:
- Princeton (2 year M.S in Finance)
- Berkeley (1 year MFE)
- LSE (1 or 2 year Quant finance masters)
- Tepper (Carnegie Mellon) - Computational Finance, which you can boost with business subjects.
- MIT (starting a new Master of Finance)...
- City University, London (Master of finance programs, several industry focussed paths)
- LBS (1 year Master of Finance, an expensive option)

Industrial Engineering programs with good finance possibilities:
- Georgia Tech (Industrial & Systems Engg Masters with Quant Finance)
- MIT (Engineering Systems, Technology & Policy Program)
- Stanford (Management Science & Engineering)
- Princeton (Ops Research & Financial Engineering)
- Berkeley (Industrial Engg and Ops Research).

Check the latest US News and World Report Rankings for America's best grad schools

You can do well both ways - the latter group allows a broader base of knowledge which you can apply beyond the financial industry.

Yes - I would recommend also doing the CFA over the next few years.

Good luck
143
Given the state of the financial services industry and it's immediate to short term future, I recommend you take a course that straddles both finance and engineering subjects. It offers an opportunity to get into the finance field should things improve in the short term, yet gives you another route into a different industry where you can apply your (financial or non-financial education should finance not happen for you. I admire the passion for finance, but keep your options open.... I would strongly suggest something in the field of Industrial & Systems Engineering / Operations Research / Technology Management / Financial Engineering / Management Science (taking a Quant Finance heavy elective group).

Pure Quantitative finance programs:
- Princeton (2 year M.S in Finance)
- Berkeley (1 year MFE)
- LSE (1 or 2 year Quant finance masters)
- Tepper (Carnegie Mellon) - Computational Finance, which you can boost with business subjects.
- MIT (starting a new Master of Finance)...
- City University, London (Master of finance programs, several industry focussed paths)
- LBS (1 year Master of Finance, an expensive option)

Industrial Engineering programs with good finance possibilities:
- Georgia Tech (Industrial & Systems Engg Masters with Quant Finance)
- MIT (Engineering Systems, Technology & Policy Program)
- Stanford (Management Science & Engineering)
- Princeton (Ops Research & Financial Engineering)
- Berkeley (Industrial Engg and Ops Research).

Check the latest US News and World Report Rankings for America's best grad schools

You can do well both ways - the latter group allows a broader base of knowledge which you can apply beyond the financial industry.

Yes - I would recommend also doing the CFA over the next few years.

Good luck



thanx a lot for ur inputs!! just wanted to know the programs that u mentioned..the Industrial Engineering programs..! how much of schols do they usually give? the financing part is a major factor for me..coz am not that sound financially to be able to fund my whole studies abroad!!
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nemo1 Says
thanx a lot for ur inputs!! just wanted to know the programs that u mentioned..the Industrial Engineering programs..! how much of schols do they usually give? the financing part is a major factor for me..coz am not that sound financially to be able to fund my whole studies abroad!!


Scholarships are not given, they're actually earned. Get a good GRE (important to score 750+ in the quant section of the test to have a change at the big engineering schools) or GMAT (720+), get strong recommendations at least one of which authoritatively comments on your academic ability, and write a compelling case of why you want to do this program. In your essays talk about what you bring to the school in terms of experience, expertise and skills; along with why an Masters from the school helps you in your career goals.

Get an admit to the school and then worry about what scholarships you can / will get.
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hi baccardisprite

first of all... a commendable job you doing out here..... !!!! i m a hotel management graduate 4rm IHM Jaipur.... after completing my graduation.... i strtd wrking with a premium apparel chain.. 4 like 1 year,,,, then in 2008 i decided to go 4 cat... thus left the job after 1 yr(tried but couldnt concentrate on studies.. as job requires wrking 4 13-14 hrs everyday...) and along side started with my own small firm of housekeeping facilities to earn supplementary income....

i got 90 percentile in cat and 93 in xat.... and got some good calls... but unfortunately couldnt
convert them primarily of two reasons.... all b schools were quite skeptical about my graduation... and i have a average score in x and plus 2.....

now i m looking 4ward to apply abroad 4 MBA preferably canada.... i cant give GMAT coz if i go 4 that... it means another 6 7 mnths of processing and I will be able to go only in jan 2010... where as i m aiming july\ September intake....
so my ques to you is what are the options i can go 4 by giving IELTS.... and i wont mind even a specialized course like a masters or a post graduate diploma in marketing........ but they should be at least average good schools or universities having a considerable job prospectus....

thanks ya!!!

i cant spend more than 10lacs... (excluding expenses)....

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I'd agree with Aragon's advice. Perhaps a Master's in one of:

- Quantitative finance
- Advanced Statistical & Research Methods
- Computational Finance
- Financial Engineering
- advanced analytics
- Statistics &/or statistical Finance
- Financial Economics or Econometrics

any one of which you might want to take to Ph.D level. You could boost your credentials with a CFA. The best programs in the field of analytics and quantitative computing (whatever their application) would be in the US. Princeton (2 year Master of Finance), Carnegie Mellon (Quantitative computing), Georgia-Tech, MIT - Sloan (coupled with MIT's Engineering Systems Division), Stanford (Management Science or related), Haas-Berkeley (MFE). UK Schools run some very good programs concentrating on Quantitative and Qualitative Research Methods (they call them MRes programs I think). All great programs, both at Masters and Doctoral levels.
Think about what you want to apply research to, as research by itself is a vague term and broad field.

Good Luck

Thanks bacc. for your geniune advice and prompt reply. You are correct In long run I wish to go for Phd I wish to ask a question is there a phd for market research or phd in marketing with specialization in market research will do. Thanks again for your help
147

thank you lord aragon and baccardisprite!

your inputs are very informative. I have done my bit of research regarding LSE and the engineering schools. I believe the Economics degree from LSE will have a greater impact when I apply to Consulting and IB's. I agree that the engineering schools will give me more opportunities for RA/TA. LSE does give second year masters students RA/TA opportunities as well. I eventually want to work in the M&A;, Strategy/Consulting sector. I guess going to LSE might just be more benefitial.

London will also give me access to the top banks and consulting firms.

Thanks for the inputs.

Kushagra

ps- I have sent my acceptance to Cornell though. LSE offer has also been accepted.

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I have done my bit of research regarding LSE and the engineering schools. I believe the Economics degree from LSE will have a greater impact when I apply to Consulting and IB's. I agree that the engineering schools will give me more opportunities for RA/TA. LSE does give second year masters students RA/TA opportunities as well. I eventually want to work in the M&A;, Strategy/Consulting sector. I guess going to LSE might just be more benefitial.

London will also give me access to the top banks and consulting firms. Thanks for the inputs.

Kushagra, ps- I have sent my acceptance to Cornell though. LSE offer has also been accepted.


Provided your goals are clear and you stick with them, you can't go wrong with your choice of LSE. All the best.