Investment Banking in India and Abroad

hi Jamiroquai..nice initiative...I have a generic query..I am a mechanical engineer working in Manufacturing Industry..Say if I do an MBA in Finance or any finance related course, then would the companies be willing to offer me profiles in IB considering I would have had no prior exposure to the same??
P.S. Please excuse my ignorance, but I was initially attracted to the IB profile mainly due to the Salaries. But I have developed an interest in numbers & analysis through six sigma in due course now.


Briefly: only a pedigree school MBA or rank holding A would be considered. Usually IB recruiting at entry level is done only at campuses. IB firms have no issue with career switches at the entry level.

Hi Man

I had asked u a query about the college stuff.

Now I would like to give my background here.
I am a computer engineer with 66%. . Currently I have six months exp in IT.

10th and 12th are pretty good.
Now this year I have run short of luck.
Missed XAT 98.56 %tile JMET AIR 600 FMS missed by 20 marks or 5 questions CAT 90%tile The worst one.

Now u said that for IB the good colleges are IIM,XLRI,ISB,JBIMS.
I can now only dream of JBIMS.
IS it really that good?
Can i expect a niche profile in a hot bank ?
Do you have any friends in jb who graduated and got plum jobs?

Man, I am really screwed bcoz i have missed very narrowly in all entrance exams. Should I then aim for JB or perhaps give another shot at CAT,XAT.
The CET for JB is yet to happen !

Please guide

Can a fresh CA expect to land up in i-banking sector(or closely allied sectors) in india,without mba or cfa-usa?

...
Now u said that for IB the good colleges are IIM,XLRI,ISB,JBIMS.
I can now only dream of JBIMS.
IS it really that good?
Yes. Not because of its professors or anything - but because how tremendously freaking hard it is to get in - and how many previous CEOs are from it and are proud of their institution. You also have a star visiting faculty coming in regularly due to its location proximate to downtown mumbai

Can i expect a niche profile in a hot bank ?
Define "niche" - and by "hot" do you mean bulge-bracket?

Do you have any friends in jb who graduated and got plum jobs?
Check pagalguy - the site is replete with examples of people who went to the BBs.

Man, I am really screwed bcoz i have missed very narrowly in all entrance exams. Should I then aim for JB or perhaps give another shot at CAT,XAT.
The CET for JB is yet to happen !
Try JB. If you have your heart set on IB - then only the best b-schools will do. Don't take other people's advice about "just getting an MBA, no matter where"... i got that advice so much that it was spilling out my fucking ears... but i pursued on with my goal of getting a world-class MBA. Investment Banks demand nothing less, especially the BBs

Please guide

Thanks a ton for your reply !!
I love your honest views :)

By hot bank i meant bulge-bracket.
By niche i meant the investment banking profile with those great salaries.

Would you pls mention your profile. Just curious about it.
I very much liked the last view point.
"If you have your heart set on IB - then only the best b-schools will do"

By hot bank i meant bulge-bracket.
By niche i meant the investment banking profile with those great salaries.


No worries on the clarifications. I needed to understand what you meant because there are hot banks which are non bulge-brackets too. For example, up until last year - restructuring was a goldmine - and the major restructuring bank in the US - Houlihan Lokey is a middle-market bank. Lazard, another restructuring major is non-BB too; but super tough to get into.

Regarding the salaries - you must bear in mind that no matter where in the investment banking industry you work - the closer you are to a product group, the more you will see cyclicality. So in one good year when you see half a million dollars in bonuses, the next year could mean a sharp downturn in that business (crashes usually happen immediately after bonus peaks have been hit!). It probably is safer in middle-market sections of investment banks - but then again, we're not here to mitigate risks (we're too f***in ninja for that!)

This reminds me, my next post will be on groups in structured investment banks here is the US and how the model is replicated in India.
sushant1002001 Says
Can a fresh CA expect to land up in i-banking sector(or closely allied sectors) in india,without mba or cfa-usa?


Yes - but only if he's a first-attempt or rank-holding CA. Others can try too, but it will be atleast thrice as tough

An explanation of Coverage Groups (may vary slightly from bank to bank)

Coverage Groups: The investment bankers in coverage groups usually cover specific industries or groups of industries. These bankers know their industries really well, participate in transactions covering these sectors and pitch transactions to companies in their sectors. Examples of coverage groups are-
TMT: Tech, Media & Telecom
FIG: Financial Institutions Group - covering financial service firms including insurance companies, etc
Industrials: Manufacturing, auto, airlines, rail, etc
FSG: Financial Sponsors Group - covering the PE companies and their transactions in the market
Natural Resources: Covering gas, minerals, coal, etc (may cover green energy, sometimes)
Power: Power producing companies as well as distribution companies (utilities)

(sometimes Natural Resources and Power are in the same group)

Product Groups: Product group bankers usually work with coverage bankers to bring "products" to the market. They're the rain-makers of the investment bank. They're also the highest paid. They're also usually the first ones to be fired when the market turns crap.

Leverage Finance: Raise money for companies thru debt to a higher Debt / Capitalization Ratio than usual. May comprise of sub-investment grade. Products are leveraged loans and high-yield bonds.

Equity Capital Markets: Usually private placement of equity. May include IPOs.

Debt Capital Markets: Usually private placement of debt - typically investment-grade debt. May comprise of loans and bonds. May also include mezzanine debt.

Hey..just an inquisitive query...how did u get into i-banking with an engg degree even before doin an MBA? pretty awesome...mind telling us? 😃

Hey great thread Jamiroquai! I've been searching for stuff like this for a long time.I have a couple of questions:

1.)How are the selection rounds like ? Do they cull everyone with a percentage/ GPA limit at top B-schools ? How technical are the interviews ? ( do we need to know M&I;'s guide and the Rosenbaum book inside out ?). I've read somewhere that we are expected to already know financial modelling before applying.

2) If you are at a top B-school , but have low acads. will networking through alums help ? How is the networking scenario in India ?

3) What are the best groups at i-banks in India in terms of so called exit ops. Do big 4 accounting Cos. with advisory services groups offer the same exit ops in India ? (eg KPMG )

4) Whats the average age of 1st year analysts?

My background: Non -Engg.About a year in a top 4 US Commercial bank operations (fund accounting).

mdirfan Says
Hey..just an inquisitive query...how did u get into i-banking with an engg degree even before doin an MBA? pretty awesome...mind telling us? :)


...

No ego involved on my part - but lets just say that this is a tough act to repeat - especially since I got an indian HR person to do some honest work more than once every 600 years...
One day, someone from HR, while sitting in the john looked at one of the resumes he / she was using as toilet paper - and thought that the kind of math skills I had looked kinda amazing. Plus, the cover letter I had written cracked her up - "honest", "hard-working", "persevering" were words that made him / her laugh so hard that tears streamed down her eyes...

So instead of using the resume to wipe her (lets face it - HR is manned by good looking but air-headed women) butt - I got invited in for an interview and sunk my claws into the firm

No ego involved on my part - but lets just say that this is a tough act to repeat - especially the part about getting HR to do some honest work more than once every 600 years...


On a lighter note : Looks like we'll have to replace the toilet papers with our CVs just prior to the BB companies coming to the campus for placement..!!

Considering the fact that the way business is expanding in India especially, won't the BB-Firms be also attracted to the next tier of B-schools like SP Jain, NMIMS, SIBM-Pune let's say 2-3 years down the line??

I'm asking this 'cos i missed the IIM & XLRI flight and will have to settle for NM or SIBM-Pune because i have to certainly take admission this year.
Hey great thread Jamiroquai! I've been searching for stuff like this for a long time.I have a couple of questions:

1.)How are the selection rounds like ? Do they cull everyone with a percentage/ GPA limit at top B-schools ?

You will have to check as to how they pick people in the selection rounds in India, but I am guessing that the GPA plays a substantial role.
In the US, the GPA plays a role only in a GPA-anal firm like JP Morgan. Other BB's use GPA only as a hygiene factor to make sure that they're not recruiting someone who would be much more suited for brand management / HR.


How technical are the interviews ? ( do we need to know M&I;'s guide and the Rosenbaum book inside out ?). I've read somewhere that we are expected to already know financial modelling before applying.


Rosenbaum's book is amazing in terms of taking you right where you need to be for technical interviews. Believe it or not, I have a copy right here on the table beside me. You don't need to know the stuff cold - but you should have read thru the stuff that pertains to the field you'd like to get into. I've been fortunate enough to meet the guy when I was on Wall Street recruiting with UBS (flexes ivy league muscle )

Also, it is expected that you know valuation methodologies in order to get in. DCF and the other major ones are dealt with in his book. (Damn, now I sound like I'm selling his book). I don't figuring out how to do a valuation should really be a big deal once you know how your statements connect with each other.

Give the paid M&I; guide a skip and read the website http://www.mergersandinquisitions.com/ instead - it's way better in terms of information value per rupee spent


2) If you are at a top B-school , but have low acads. will networking through alums help ? How is the networking scenario in India ?

Yeah, am gonna call a rain-check on this one. Am not really 100% on the 'making it' part once you're in a top b-school (and don't wanna BS my way thru questions). However, I do know that its relatively simpler and involves a lot less networking (ass-kissing) than it does in the US, but would involve more of a CGPA role than you might like (coz they're looking to pick up the best)


3) What are the best groups at i-banks in India in terms of so called exit ops. Do big 4 accounting Cos. with advisory services groups offer the same exit ops in India ? (eg KPMG )

Advisory, in India, is played by the big-four accounting firms whose Advisory desks which don't have balance sheet strength to underwrite transactions. They do pretty decent deals in India and are well-respected across the board. This is primarily because the deals are so vanilla and primitive there that you don't really need full-service banks in most capital-raises. As major banks enter the field slowly but surely (it's already started) - advisory firms will take their rightful place at the back of the bus.

But - as of now, they're the best there is, just slightly behind the BBs in terms of prestige, pay and learning opportunities.

When you talk about exit opps - are you talking about PE? In that case, the best there are - are firms which allow you the most prestige - BBs make the most sense in this case, right?


4) Whats the average age of 1st year analysts?
In the US, it's about 22. Three years down, they're either promoted or "encouraged" to go to business school. In India, most of the IIM hires don't have relevant experience and are therefore picked up for Analyst roles. They then have the opportunity to grow into Associate roles.


My background: Non -Engg.About a year in a top 4 US Commercial bank operations (fund accounting).

Hi Jamiroquai,
Great initiative..
I had a question..I am currently doing my MBA in Finance and I am looking to make a career in IB. In my college not many big players (except for JP Morgan, Nomura and one or two more) come to recruit but there are some small players that come.

So if I am not able to get into a big name, should I go for a small firm to at least start my career in IB??
Would it hamper my chances to go up the ladder (in big firms) later??

or Should I look for opportunities off campus and not join any small firm at all??

On a lighter note : Looks like we'll have to replace the toilet papers with our CVs just prior to the BB companies coming to the campus for placement..!!

Considering the fact that the way business is expanding in India especially, won't the BB-Firms be also attracted to the next tier of B-schools like SP Jain, NMIMS, SIBM-Pune let's say 2-3 years down the line??

I'm asking this 'cos i missed the IIM & XLRI flight and will have to settle for NM or SIBM-Pune because i have to certainly take admission this year.


I'm gonna be honest here - I'm sure that BBs would consider SPJIMR and (errrr, maybe) NMIMS. However, I really have my doubts as to whether they would pick up people from SIBM.

The "JP Morgan" and other BBs that schools like SIBM, SCMHRD and ICFAI, et al (not to lump them together, coz even ICFAI-H is a *#$%@ of $%@) are - at best - placements in back office or "Global Resource Centres"). You have zero opportunities of getting into investment banking after that. (Unless you do another MBA in a top b-school or your uncle makes president).

I would strongly advise putting your back to swinging the NMIMS interview. Not because NMIMS is that it has a fantastic program or anything (it might have?) - it's just that it has the brand associated with it and is located in Mumbai.

Global Resource Centers and Investment Banking:

A lot of people who read the prospectus of a b-school are excited to see BBs recruit there. Seeing some of the recruiters on most of these brochures is enough to excite the standard applicant more than the centrefold of the latest issue of Maxim. However, beware! a lot of those jobs are in the firms' Global Resource Centres - i.e. glorified KPOs.

Disclaimer: Before I start off, I mean no disrespect to those working at these KPOs. They're working really hard and do an honest man's job. They work beyond the call of duty most nites and slog their butts off to keep their bosses happy and salaries coming in. BB KPOs also pay pretty decently for an MBA grad from a tier-2/3/4/5/6/.../738,378 school
Real stories from analysts who're my classmates here at school:

Goldman Sachs: "Friday nite, need to go out - but have been instructed to build a model before Monday morning. Three cells of what should otherwise be a 15-page macro-enabled model have been filled out. Well, the solution was to call GS' Resource/Valuation Centre in Bangalore and get them to finish it before Monday morning arrives"

Citi: "There was a link to the Mumbai KPO on their internal website. They would submit instructions to this page and the ask for the work they needed done. Twenty-four hours later - hook or by crook - its done"

AT Kearney (this one was from a guy who I had the pleasure of listening to while I was staying at the ISB during one of my spontaneous vacations): "We'd push all the data-mining and research (muttering begins) and other shit jobs (muttering ends) to the back office in the nite while we were leaving work and we'd come back to the office next morning and it'd be done"

...to be continued

... continued

The point I am trying to make is that by taking up these "Global Resource Center" jobs, you're not getting yourself any closer to the world of investment banking. Thats what this thread is about - figuring out how to get into investment banking. I'm hoping to boost your understanding of what the business is all about, here.

The various smiling faces you see of people in these Resource Centers are smiling because they've been told to - not coz they love their jobs. (Well, the investment bankers don't smile while they're doing their jobs either - not until the bonus hits the bank... )

For those asking me which GRC to get into - sorry mate, I'm not the authority on this.

Hi Jamiroquai,
Great initiative..
I had a question..I am currently doing my MBA in Finance and I am looking to make a career in IB. In my college not many big players (except for JP Morgan, Nomura and one or two more) come to recruit but there are some small players that come.

So if I am not able to get into a big name, should I go for a small firm to at least start my career in IB??
Would it hamper my chances to go up the ladder (in big firms) later??

or Should I look for opportunities off campus and not join any small firm at all??


Here's how I would structure the options:
Rank 1. Small firm core-investment banking practice**
Rank 2. ... everything else finance related...
Rank 3. GRC of BB (unless you have plans of going to a top-tier school again, then BB-GRC is a good choice for pre-b-school)

(also you must launch a parallel hunt for IB jobs or any connections in the industry which could give you an internship in an IB firm for a couple of months. Offer to work for free, if needed, for the first couple of months)

** Before joining a small firm, make sure that they have a strong deal pipeline. If they don't, there's a high risk that they will shut shop and you'll be out on the street jobless, ear-deep in debt and with no fall-back plan.

Man after reading what you have written i am in love with IB.
Feels like I am doing a dumb job in IT. Which is true, but never felt so intensely before.
Keep it coming man. A thousand souls would thank you.
If it is MBA, it has to be IB. 😃 😃

P.S. - Sorry for not adding any value to the discussion. This post is just an expression of gratitude.