Hi Jamiroquai
Thanks for the info.
My ears have started bleeding owing to what I keep hearing about CFA (the international one). A lot of people keep saying that by clearing level 1 you can get into an investment bank (examples were quoted of people who got into Nomura) and then you can clear the rest of the levels later on.
Is this accurate? Can clearing level 1 get me into a bulge bracket I bank (in the front office of course)?
Thanks
Hi Jamiroquai
Thanks for the info.
My ears have started bleeding owing to what I keep hearing about CFA (the international one). A lot of people keep saying that by clearing level 1 you can get into an investment bank (examples were quoted of people who got into Nomura) and then you can clear the rest of the levels later on.
Is this accurate? Can clearing level 1 get me into a bulge bracket I bank (in the front office of course)?
Thanks
The CFA program was initially brought out to train and certify equity research analysts. That being said, the program will equip you with certain skills that will allow you to analyze financial statements and build models.
That being said - while the CFA certification might add a line to your resume - I do not believe that it adds much value beyond what a solid MBA would give you (unless you come from a crap MBA school).
Clearing L1 will not get you anywhere with a BB. BB's look for strong resumes and an L1 is just a basic level of accounting and some ethics crap that they shove down your throat. It is sub-MBA level accounting, I'd say. If anything, L2 and L3 are better indicators of your inclination toward finance.
Once again, the strongest indicator of inclination towards finance is previous finance experience, then great MBA, then the other finance courses like CFA, et al.
You will have to check as to how they pick people in the selection rounds in India, but I am guessing that the GPA plays a substantial role.
In the US, the GPA plays a role only in a GPA-anal firm like JP Morgan. Other BB's use GPA only as a hygiene factor to make sure that they're not recruiting someone who would be much more suited for brand management / HR.
Rosenbaum's book is amazing in terms of taking you right where you need to be for technical interviews. Believe it or not, I have a copy right here on the table beside me. You don't need to know the stuff cold - but you should have read thru the stuff that pertains to the field you'd like to get into. I've been fortunate enough to meet the guy when I was on Wall Street recruiting with UBS (flexes ivy league muscle)
Also, it is expected that you know valuation methodologies in order to get in. DCF and the other major ones are dealt with in his book. (Damn, now I sound like I'm selling his book). I don't figuring out how to do a valuation should really be a big deal once you know how your statements connect with each other.
Give the paid M&I; guide a skip and read the website Understanding Investment Banking | Mergers & Inquisitions instead - it's way better in terms of information value per rupee spent
Yeah, am gonna call a rain-check on this one. Am not really 100% on the 'making it' part once you're in a top b-school (and don't wanna BS my way thru questions). However, I do know that its relatively simpler and involves a lot less networking (ass-kissing) than it does in the US, but would involve more of a CGPA role than you might like (coz they're looking to pick up the best)
Advisory, in India, is played by the big-four accounting firms whose Advisory desks which don't have balance sheet strength to underwrite transactions. They do pretty decent deals in India and are well-respected across the board. This is primarily because the deals are so vanilla and primitive there that you don't really need full-service banks in most capital-raises. As major banks enter the field slowly but surely (it's already started) - advisory firms will take their rightful place at the back of the bus.
But - as of now, they're the best there is, just slightly behind the BBs in terms of prestige, pay and learning opportunities.
When you talk about exit opps - are you talking about PE? In that case, the best there are - are firms which allow you the most prestige - BBs make the most sense in this case, right?
In the US, it's about 22. Three years down, they're either promoted or "encouraged" to go to business school. In India, most of the IIM hires don't have relevant experience and are therefore picked up for Analyst roles. They then have the opportunity to grow into Associate roles.
)Thanks for answering the questions.Did you study in the states before you started work in IB ?
Sklar SaysThanks for answering the questions.Did you study in the states before you started work in IB ?
Nopes. Studied all over the good ol' mother country before settling down in Mumbai
hi
first of all thnx for starting this thread 😃
it has been very helpful
i am hoping to get spjain or narseemonji dis year ..
i am defintly gonna try for jbims as well . bt it seems very difficult being an oms candidate ( 18 seats only )
now i want to ask if if i dont make it to jbims n get sp jain ..
is it good enough (for BB) ??
ps: not trying to compare sp with jbims
js want to get a clear picture
hi
first of all thnx for starting this thread 😃
it has been very helpful
i am hoping to get spjain or narseemonji dis year ..
i am defintly gonna try for jbims as well . bt it seems very difficult being an oms candidate ( 18 seats only )
now i want to ask if if i dont make it to jbims n get sp jain ..
is it good enough (for BB) ??
ps: not trying to compare sp with jbims
js want to get a clear picture
SPJIMR is a strong school - but unless theres a hiring rush anticipated sometime soon - I don't see them visiting SPJIMR in droves.
But here's the kicker: Sometimes there is a senior banker in the team who is not so enamored by the HR women - and he kicks some serious HR ass in trying to get them to recruit at a school he or his son/nephew/postman is from - this could be SPJIMR or could be Bharatiya Vidyapeeth Local Management School for chronic underachievers (okay, maybe definitely not the latter, but you get my point, right?)
Time for some data analysis:
Ref: SPJIMR - SP Jain Institute of Management & Research, Mumbai
Highest foreign salary: $40,000 USD (Rs. 18 lacs when directly converted without a PPP factor)
Now here are some information and statistics that you should be aware of when b-schools talk about working abroad salaries:
Brick-layer:Applies mortar to bricks and scrapes off excess. Lays and stacks bricks neatly in order to build walls and various structures. Requires a high school diploma and 0-2 years of experience in the field or in a related area.
Median Salary: $45,659 USD
Average Bricklayer Salary Information plus Job, Career Education & Unemployment Help
Note: I'm hoping SPJIMR is making a mistake in its reported information. If not, then we know (from the extremely complex deductive reasoning that $40,000
** Wow, I have really deviated from what I set out to answer in this post. The key take-away is that it will be much more difficult to make it thru SPJIMR to a BB. It can be done - but very very difficult.
Jargon Breakdown:
I spent a couple of minutes looking thru various summer profiles on b-school sites for what their students did in the investment banking industry. I thought I'd crack some jargon for you guys to give you insight. Right now, I am tackling the BS jargon, but I'd love to have you guys ask me stuff on the technical side (I know what this stuff means coz I've done some of it too - but I figure it's time what people really know what they mean):
* "Market Assessment" : There are very few reports which describe the Indian market in detail. Crisil does a good job in general and then there are the stray equity research report. So basically, by putting this on his CV, the guy's saying that he sat on Google and looked thru tons of websites and Times of India archives to find data that could substantiate a proposition
* "Prepared Pitch Book": Especially on summer projects - they were given stacks of books, a template and a computer to type all the shit in. They then took the Pitch book a billion times back and forth to the associate in charge and kept getting it changed over and over. Formatting is an important skill here. (Unfortunately, you'll do this as a real investment banker too - but only when you're real junior.)
*"Prepared Teaser": Put the Pitch Book / Information Memorandum into a templated one-page format.
*"Prepared information memorandum": Either formatted pitch book or did the same thing as preparing pitch book
*"Qualitative Research": Google and spin. Maybe some copy-paste off a couple of stray market reports
*"Prepared a financial model": Assisted a full-time analyst in preparing what takes two days, tops. Assisted by.....Google and checking documents for assumptions.
*"Issued buy/sell recommendations": Nodded head to someone else's recommendation. (Seriously? What kind of broking firm publishes a report based of a summer trainee's recommendation?)
*"Performed comparables analysis": Ahhh, this is something, now. But theres a difference, one is doing the actual "comps" and the other is doing it like a banker. Doing it as a summer means you plug these numbers into an excel sheet straight off the financial statement. Doing it as a banker means you adjust it for all kinds of variations you see from company to company.
*"Evaluation of competitors / industry": Google, google, google.
Alain SaysDoes the bottom two IIMs(out of the six) IIM I and IIM K help make an entry(right out of school) into the bulge bracket IB firms. Your view on this plz.
Yes. Get above par grades and work hard to show interest. BB's do recruit here.
Is it possible for someone working in IB in India to get a job abroad?
Master Chief SaysIs it possible for someone working in IB in India to get a job abroad?
To Dubai and the middle-east - yes. However, to the developed world, it is pretty difficult (which is a tragedy because the skills are very transferable)
Jamiroquai SaysTo Dubai and the middle-east - yes. However, to the developed world, it is pretty difficult (which is a tragedy because the skills are very transferable)
Thank you Jamiroquai, would you mind answering a slightly narrow question that might only be only useful to me?
I'm a btech in from a fairly decent mumbai college, but I'm a fresher, and I have calls from all the symbi colleges. I'm really keen on getting into investment banking, hopefully in a top tier bank, in one of the developed anglosphere country. I'm very flexible when it comes to building up my profile, working for a few years, doing a second mba or another course in India or abroad.
How would you suggest I go forward from this point, what kind of job should I try and get after symbiosis?
PS: I have a great interest in and liking for finance and don't mind putting in the work.
hi,
you have talked about various B-schools but you have missed one..FMS, Delhi University. It has been ranked among the top 5 after (IIM A,B,C) and at par with XLRI..
How would you rate it for someone interested in I-bank??
mohd_k SaysFMS is not known for I-Banks. Not BB(Bulge Bracket) firms at least. For IB, it has to be IIMs A,B,C,L, XL, ISB, in addition, IIMs I,K and SP Jain to some extent. May be Jamiroquai could give a better picture.
We're talking investment banking BB front-office here. So for first-year associates / analysts, FMS might not give you the bridge you need to make it. You may be able to sneak into a BB laterally, tho.
mohd_k is right about how the schools are perceived - and therefore the quality of offers their candidates receive.
(tho' I'm not so sure about SP Jain, unless you're talking about a recruiting bull market like 2006-07)
hey Jamiroquai... thanks for providing us newbies with such valuable and HONEST info abt IB..
currently i am pursuing bachelors of business economics.. i am totally confused where my interests lies, and what profile am i suited for... here's my profile.. kindly have a look..
maths is my childhood love, and i enjoy economics is well.. theory subjects is something that i have never enjoyed. studied accounts only in class 11 and 12, but enjoyed it. i have taken up finance as a specialization in my final year, but couldnt devote much time to it as i was busy with CAT prep. so no idea how i fare up in finance. on the personal front, i love competition. also, i am a monomaniac, and whatever interests me, i am 24*7 into it... appeared for various mba entrance exams this year.. as of now, i have IIM S, SIBM, SCMHRD, NMIMS(expected..240),MFC and MBE calls..
i'd come across the term investment banking around a year ago. since then, i'v developed a liking for the lifestyle of an investment banker.. high salary and the ultra professional life is something that i'v been craving for ever since.
now the prob is that i am unsure whether it is just my obsession or am i really suitable for this job...
plzzzz help!!!
...
How would you suggest I go forward from this point, what kind of job should I try and get after symbiosis?...
Try establishing a connect with someone in the "investment banking " side of a large brokerage house like Religaire or EdelCap, etc. If you have plans for a second MBA - you're gonna be really old by the time you get it done in the US. Also, beware: there are fewer and fewer schools in the US which encourage you to get in with an MBA already.
I would also advise you to aim for firms which have balance sheet power - like Tata Capital; in order to gain credit experience (debt-side) before your second MBA.
Also, ensure that you break your back studying finance (above and beyond core curriculum) coz a school like Symbi is not gonna give you the quality of education and exposure you need to stand out at your workplace. (This is super important when going for your second MBA at a solid MBA program in the western hemisphere)
hey Jamiroquai...
i'd come across the term investment banking around a year ago. since then, i'v developed a liking for the lifestyle of an investment banker.. high salary and the ultra professional life is something that i'v been craving for ever since.
now the prob is that i am unsure whether it is just my obsession or am i really suitable for this job...
plzzzz help!!!
I hated this advice when I was given it too - "get some work experience"... going in directly for your MBA, no matter to which school in the world, is not all that beneficial because you will suffer immensely when it comes to placements. Also, you would be going thru an MBA with no understanding of what working is like...
The money is great, but there are lots of weeks when you're working close to a 100 hours / week (not including commute time) - you can't really say how awful this is until you've had a job that made you work 50 hours a week (even 50 is a pain...)
I would advise you take a slower path to banking. You're still really young and have your entire life and career ahead of you. Do it right the first time.
hey Jamiroquai so the only colleges worth IB in India are IIM A,B,C,L XLRI ISB ?
no other ones ? pls mention if any exist apart from what I have mentioned.
what abt JBIMS?
P.S. just trying to confirm. After all it is going to be a life changing decision!!
I hated this advice when I was given it too - "get some work experience"... going in directly for your MBA, no matter to which school in the world, is not all that beneficial because you will suffer immensely when it comes to placements. Also, you would be going thru an MBA with no understanding of what working is like...
The money is great, but there are lots of weeks when you're working close to a 100 hours / week (not including commute time) - you can't really say how awful this is until you've had a job that made you work 50 hours a week (even 50 is a pain...)
I would advise you take a slower path to banking. You're still really young and have your entire life and career ahead of you. Do it right the first time.
sir can you suggest me what kinda a job shall i look forward to after my graduation??? i am not from srcc or cbs, so will have to apply off campus!!!
Hi
Could you shed some light on the terms "Applied finance" and "financial modelling"? And I mean without the jargon and fancy language.
Thanks
also sir, can you plz highlight the hierarchy in an Investment bank. as in once we join as analysts, after how long do we get promoted to the next level.. and so on... thanx in advance!!!