Hi Jamiroquai ... so a little help would be appreciated...
Don't think this as demeaning, just as a reality check; but here's what I'm hearing: - You've just quit your job and are unemployed - You're not from a top school - You don't want to get an MBA - You have an econ background with little to no finance knowledge - You're not really concerned about what a BB or an MM or a boutique is
The points I've listed above should comprehensively cover everything you need to work on before you can consider investment banking as a career path.
Really gratified by the politeness of your replies as no one in today's world put so much efforts for the benefit of others.
Well, I am a Chartered Accountant ( Fresher). I have done project finance in a mid size firm for 2 years(pre qualification). I recently done a management course and there was an investment banker. Really inspired by him and want to be an IB myself.
Well i have been offered a role by a finance company of US having office in India of providing services to Hedge funds. Though the services are back & middle office, Admin, Valuation and such services, I want to do the job just assuming i would learn about different exotic instruments and try to shift myself into front office (as that is where i aspire myself).
So can you guide me how difficult it would be to change from back to front in such industries.....
Also as it is a CPA like job would it be interesting for a guy who likes finance more.
Please help soon bro as I have to start a new direction of career. Actually i'm spoilt of choices at this point.
... Please help soon bro as I have to start a new direction of career. Actually i'm spoilt of choices at this point.
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If they say your profile would be "Admin" and "valuation", it's a scam. Also working BO will give you a disjointed look into the operations of the hedge fund. Not very helpful in terms of learning.
To move from BO to FO, you need to go through Middle Office - that too in a very reputed firm. Preferably one of international repute with MO / BO operations in India. Then you can go to a domestic FO and make the move from there. This is a long process and takes 3-5 years to accomplish.
J-Man, do you know anything about the hedge fund industry in India (particularly non-quant funds that are more long-short, deep value, or activist tilts)? I tried to find a few firms and a lot of the guys don't seem to have THAT impressive of backgrounds. I saw a couple of value funds in Delhi, and the guys either did engineering from very average US schools or they had MBAs from fairly random schools (I mean, I know the names, but it's a far cry from the IIT to IIM backgrounds that I see most people rocking at i-banks/PE funds). Are hedge funds less competitive or what?
Also, I will likely be sitting for the CAT next year, so I was wondering if ER/HFs/PE only recruit from IIM A/B/C + ISB + XLRI or do some of the "lesser" IIMs still get solid placements?
My profile would be fund accounting. The company is Globeop financial. So shall i go into this if my long term objective is to get into front office...
Or shall i wait for a front office job.
My Qualification: good Acad (I mean d percentages of my exams. Schools n colleges Avg) Passed CA Final in 2nd attempt but marks were good Passed other level of CA's first attempt with good marks.
Really great thread man. Awesome Job! After reading this entire thread, I have gained lot of information, just in past few days. I was just looking out for this kind of information. I guess "Thank You" suffices. So, THANK YOU :)
Well, as others I too have some questions (on Investment Banking only). I'd be much obliged to know your response.
I did B.E. Computer Engg. (completed in July 2010) and I've been working as a Software Engineer for almost a year. My goal is to work as an IB (from a BB only). I would definitely pursue an MBA (from top tier B-School only, nothing less).
But before getting into MBA, I am really keen to have some experience in finance field, only because I am interested. So what options should I opt for? I mean can I go for any such internship (if any, coz I really want to) or what kind of job can teach me the skills required for a BB IB?
Pardon me, as it may seem career counseling, but my intention is different. In one of your replies you mentioned that you did BE in E&TC;, you worked in Non -Performing Asset analysis & investigation & so on. So I am just curious to know. I am just exploring whether to continue with IT and prepare for MBA or have some hands on experience.
I do not want to show any contempt towards US or I-banks. Is it really that bad in US? But since you are in there, I would like to know your views on the current downturn that is gripping the world. Do you think that investing in MBA now would be a very bold move? I will be doing a 2 yr mba .. admission in next year ..
P.S. just want to get an idea from someone who is a subject matter expert in this area 😃
I do not want to show any contempt towards US or I-banks. Is it really that bad in US? But since you are in there, I would like to know your views on the current downturn that is gripping the world. Do you think that investing in MBA now would be a very bold move? I will be doing a 2 yr mba .. admission in next year ..
P.S. just want to get an idea from someone who is a subject matter expert in this area :)
The current scenario is indicative of great uncertainty. Everyone is worried about which way the economy and the market is going - which is why the DJIA is swinging wildly. The wild swings are indicative of two schools of thought - one is "we're f*cked, everybody sell everything, including your mothers and children!". The other school of thought is going "wow, stocks look really cheap today with all those fools selling, let me buy some of these really cheap-looking companies today".
On the banking side, we do a fair amount of under-writing. The end result of this is that there are a lot of banks who've underwritten large amounts and are not able to sell them into the market without taking losses. Let me explain how:
underwriting definition: promises to fund within a certain stated and agreed upon costs.
With the screwy markets, the underwriting commitments are now like nooses around bankers' necks. this is because the stated costs are being exceeded. For equity deals, these costs would be a minimum selling price per share. For debt deals, these costs would be a minimum interest rate. Banks are finding that they can now only sell those equities below their agreed upon rate. They can now only sell that debt at interest rates above which they agreed upon.
What happens when they sell equity below the agreed upon price or debt at interest rates above the agreed rate? Well, in this case, the banks have to pay the excess out of their own pockets. They stop making money and start losing money on the deals.
There is a lot of talk about how banks are greedy and charge a large fee for underwriting deals. This kind of scenario is exactly why. Banks take on a large risk for their clients by guaranteeing them funding through underwriting. This ensures that no matter what, the clients get the money no matter what. That projects that are vital to the health of the economy and the country go through without problems of lack of funding. If the banks didn't make profits during the good times that they could put aside for aside for a rainy day, they would all be bankrupt when times got tough like now.
As for getting a US MBA right now - I think this is a great time to get one.
... But before getting into MBA, I am really keen to have some experience in finance field, only because I am interested. So what options should I opt for? I mean can I go for any such internship (if any, coz I really want to) or what kind of job can teach me the skills required for a BB IB? ...
Pre-MBA experience is really very irrelevant in India, if you're targeting an IIM. However, if you're looking at a work-experience focused school like the ISB, you should strive to get a chance to work with Middle Office operations of a bulge bracket (or well-recognized name like Nomura, for example). That will give you an insight into the workings of a BB firm (even tho' it's not FO, it's as close as you would normally be able to get pre-MBA unless you're an IIT grad).
My profile would be fund accounting. The company is Globeop financial. So shall i go into this if my long term objective is to get into front office...
Or shall i wait for a front office job.
My Qualification: good Acad (I mean d percentages of my exams. Schools n colleges Avg) Passed CA Final in 2nd attempt but marks were good Passed other level of CA's first attempt with good marks.
pls help.
You should take the job. Try getting allocated to a single hedge fund type (Value based, long short, etc, one/two of these) so that you're able to familiarize yourself with their transactions. Try then reading books (or taking courses, if possible) in the FO operations of these strategies. You might or might not need an MBA to make the move to FO after this, but your new knowledge will help you a lot.
J-Man, do you know anything about the hedge fund industry in India (particularly non-quant funds that are more long-short, deep value, or activist tilts)? I tried to find a few firms and a lot of the guys don't seem to have THAT impressive of backgrounds. I saw a couple of value funds in Delhi, and the guys either did engineering from very average US schools or they had MBAs from fairly random schools (I mean, I know the names, but it's a far cry from the IIT to IIM backgrounds that I see most people rocking at i-banks/PE funds). Are hedge funds less competitive or what?
Also, I will likely be sitting for the CAT next year, so I was wondering if ER/HFs/PE only recruit from IIM A/B/C + ISB + XLRI or do some of the "lesser" IIMs still get solid placements?
You'll struggle to get placed off a lesser IIM.
Regarding non-quant funds in India, you'll see a disappointing plethora of choice primarily because apart from deep value, I don't think the Company's Act of '56 offers much in terms of realizing value through shareholder activism. You will see a traditionalized long-short strategy amongst the more aggressive asset and HF managers, but this is pervasive through a more quant-focused / technical-based strategy and does not form the core-focus for PM's or HF managers.
To answer your question, yes, they are not quick money makers in the current scenario and until someone figures out a way to work the system to their advantage, will remain laggards in terms of recruiting and getting the best minds to work with them.
Pre-MBA experience is really very irrelevant in India, if you're targeting an IIM. However, if you're looking at a work-experience focused school like the ISB, you should strive to get a chance to work with Middle Office operations of a bulge bracket (or well-recognized name like Nomura, for example). That will give you an insight into the workings of a BB firm (even tho' it's not FO, it's as close as you would normally be able to get pre-MBA unless you're an IIT grad).
Good luck!
Thanks a ton, man! 😃 I really appreciate your efforts. Because of your initiative a lot of misconceptions & myths are cleared, for a lot of people. And that's worth it.
I'd like to ask you few more things, though
1) Before I came across this thread, I followed Mergers & Inquisitions diligently. I read lots & lots of posts there. One thing I noticed that Brian(Author) mentioned that a lot of grunt work is involved at Analyst Level. So what does your experience say? Is it same in India?
2) IBs give more than 90-100 hrs/week, right. So how in the world do they manage their health & physique? Workout is the last thing they wanna do, I guess. I mean Anshu Jain doesn't look aged out, right?
Thanks a ton, man! 😃 I really appreciate your efforts. Because of your initiative a lot of misconceptions & myths are cleared, for a lot of people. And that's worth it.
I'd like to ask you few more things, though
1) Before I came across this thread, I followed Mergers & Inquisitions diligently. I read lots & lots of posts there. One thing I noticed that Brian(Author) mentioned that a lot of grunt work is involved at Analyst Level. So what does your experience say? Is it same in India?
2) IBs give more than 90-100 hrs/week, right. So how in the world do they manage their health & physique? Workout is the last thing they wanna do, I guess. I mean Anshu Jain doesn't look aged out, right?
Thanks again.!
Lol they don't. My friend works in i-banking. Went in skinny, 1 year later, fat. They also eat a lot of junk food at roadshows/client meetings. It's a tough lifestyle, hence why people only do it for a couple of years.
You should take the job. Try getting allocated to a single hedge fund type (Value based, long short, etc, one/two of these) so that you're able to familiarize yourself with their transactions. Try then reading books (or taking courses, if possible) in the FO operations of these strategies. You might or might not need an MBA to make the move to FO after this, but your new knowledge will help you a lot.
Good luck.
Just note that fund accounting is very broad.In banks like Morgan stanley or Nomura there are entire teams to handle a small part of fund accounting like Income only team or a Corporate action team focussed on mandatory events. ( just my experience as im at a fairly large place)
If you are only processing divds and int's then there's little to learn. If you are working as a fundaccountant in a corp- action team and processing trades/ instructions related to spin-off's, mergers ( cash/ stock or both) , rights , splits.. you should try to figure out why a Co. is issuing rights , considering a spin-off or terms involved in a deal.( depending of what resources you use to track and how much time you have). Although most of the time you may end up trying to figure out the software/ systems used.
Also note that as a fund accountant you are processing trades / instructions, you are not supposed to figure out why the fund is investing in a particular strategy. Be careful with the confidential info. Since you are already a CA, i think your job might be quite senior.
Lol they don't. My friend works in i-banking. Went in skinny, 1 year later, fat. They also eat a lot of junk food at roadshows/client meetings. It's a tough lifestyle, hence why people only do it for a couple of years.
And I put on a ton of weight (~15lbs in the last 9 weeks)... the free food (we have this thing called Seamless Web that allows us to order food from anywhere in Manhattan to be delivered to the office and billed to the firm. It's probably the core reason why we put on so much weight when we first join the firm).
However, you will notice that the VP's tend to have a lot less weight because they eat healthier... more tasteless salads, more attempts to go to the gym... but by the time they hit MD, they're like "f-this" and just become massive
And I put on a ton of weight (~15lbs in the last 9 weeks)... the free food (we have this thing called Seamless Web that allows us to order food from anywhere in Manhattan to be delivered to the office and billed to the firm. It's probably the core reason why we put on so much weight when we first join the firm).
However, you will notice that the VP's tend to have a lot less weight because they eat healthier... more tasteless salads, more attempts to go to the gym... but by the time they hit MD, they're like "f-this" and just become massive
HA HA....must be the freshman 15
On a more serious note....... I wanted to get an update on the hiring freezes that have been put in place .... I've heard that many banks have a hiring freezes either globally or wrt to certain desks in IBD.......Also some are in the process of cutting down soon. Wanted to know how things are in NY ............................
I have done my ba in economics and currently pursuing my mba from kj somaiya,heavily keen on making a career in ibanking....what steps to be taken now on??any help would be appreciated.
And I put on a ton of weight (~15lbs in the last 9 weeks)... the free food (we have this thing called Seamless Web that allows us to order food from anywhere in Manhattan to be delivered to the office and billed to the firm. It's probably the core reason why we put on so much weight when we first join the firm).
However, you will notice that the VP's tend to have a lot less weight because they eat healthier... more tasteless salads, more attempts to go to the gym... but by the time they hit MD, they're like "f-this" and just become massive
Alrighty. And wht abt this one?
1) Before I came across this thread, I followed Mergers & Inquisitions diligently. I read lots & lots of posts there. One thing I noticed that Brian(Author) mentioned that a lot of grunt work is involved at Analyst Level. So what does your experience say? Is it same in India?
