I would defer any admits until next year. Makes little sense to attend a 1-year program and graduate in May 2010 - the economy won't have recovered by then. I am no Nostradamus, but the Canadian economic cycle lags the US economy, so intuitively, I don't see the economy up by 2010. I hope Ivey is OK on deferrals.
I am waiting on my decision, but will surely defer it till May 2010.
What do you guys think?
whoami man dont do an MBA at all if u cant take risk at all.....
civ-ad,
thanks for replying. i did speak with several students. and to reaffirm what i heard, i cross-checked with students from queens and rotman too. i have heard nothing but resounding pessimism from all quarters. i am visiting ivey end of this month, but as of now i am more inclined towards deferring my admits everywhere.
whoami,
i don't completely agree with your analysis of the lag in the canadian economy. the canadian market is still way too conservative which has helped it in the present crisis. but given the high amount of canada's gdp being derived from exports to the us, it's inevitable that the ecomony has taken a hit. recovery in the canadian economy is also based on the price of commodities which have had a stellar run in the past few years. any recovery in the us, i think, will be swifly followed by recovery in canada. compare how the benchmark market indexes have behaved in the past couple of years.
there's no guarantee that the economy (global or canadian) will be recovering anytime soon. are you willing to postpone your admit forever? do you have a plan B to advance your career incase the MBA option fizzles out or is not lucrative anymore?
as civ_ad mentioned your decision to do an mba has to be based on several factors. it's not just about taking risks, but about taking calculated risks with the appropriate risk-reward trade-off.
make it a point to speak with several current students in the program. they will be able to fill you in on details regarding the present placement scenario.
factor in what you make currently, the cost of the program, the opportunity cost( 1 year for the program and about 9 months(conservative) trying to find a suitable employment, the median ( not the average) total compensation for your target industry, the median compensation for your backup industry. speaking with past students with backgrounds similar to yours should help you in determining the approximate probability of you being able to break into the industry of your choice. i would handicap that probability by abut 50% given the present economic situation. i would also handicap the total compensation for your target industry by about 20% and your backup industry by about 10%. that should give you the expected total compensation post your mba. assume your salary grows by 10% year-on-year, and that the market recovers in 5 years, allowing you to make the same compensation as somebody with a smiliar profile as yours and about 5 years out of his mba is making currently.
this should tell you how many years it's going to take for you to break even. if that leaves you enough number of years to reap the benefit of an mba, go for it.
i think we should all be aware that though an mba has paid rich dividends historically, it might not be the case anymore with not enough companies willing to pay high starting salaries for grads fresh out of an mba. and the economic prosperity that we had seen for the past 10 or so years( maybe more) might never return. with the financial system pretty much melting down globally, and strict economic reforms coupled with increased regulation and nationalisation of many industries, high wages post mba might become more of an exception rather thah the norm.
of course, all the doom and gloom cryers might be wrong and the whole situation might reverse itself very soon, but that is a heuristic decision that you will have to make for yourself. the only thing i can tell you is to never make/take a decision without a plan B in place. the best laid plans can go wrong. after all an mba is about effective decision making, and unless you are loaded with dough, an mba, in the current situation, is pretty much one of the biggest decisions we will be making in our lives.
let us all know what decision you take and your reasoning behind it. it might help us all out here too.
best of luck to all other applicants too!!
Rishraj - I don't want to get into mud slinging on this forum. So your comment is best ignored.
Ipitythefool - Your points are valid and I agree with them. You state that "any recovery in the us, i think, will be swifly followed by recovery in canada." This is what I meant when I said that the Canadian economy lags the US.
Most of us are applying to the MBA program for a betterment in career prospects. All I wanted to say was you don't want to graduate when no one is hiring. Several of my friends in the US graduated in August 08 and are either having their offers revoked or are jobless. Risks need to be calculated and if a deferral is allowed, I would put that as a calculated risk.
Of course, that is my personal opinion.
One should note that if the condition with BOA and Citi gets worse, then the slump will get prolonged for years. Sure, the Canadian economy is commodity driven...but with commodity prices plunging any reversal would require that the financial sector (think BOA and Citi) return to some semblance of normalcy. More lending may lead to more spending which may drive the commodities up.
Also, what GE reports in its next quarter is going to be very critical to the overall health of the economy and the confidence of investors. Dividend cutting never pleases a stock holder. So we have to wait and see...
Also, based on my location, I can see things firsthand.
All I wanted to say was deferring to the next year makes sense to me and called for an open discussion. I really appreciate your honest input.
Will keep you posted on my decision. Apologies for typos/grammar.
Thank you.
Ipitythefool - Your points are valid and I agree with them. You state that "any recovery in the us, i think, will be swifly followed by recovery in canada." This is what I meant when I said that the Canadian economy lags the US.
Most of us are applying to the MBA program for a betterment in career prospects. All I wanted to say was you don't want to graduate when no one is hiring. Several of my friends in the US graduated in August 08 and are either having their offers revoked or are jobless. Risks need to be calculated and if a deferral is allowed, I would put that as a calculated risk.
Of course, that is my personal opinion.
One should note that if the condition with BOA and Citi gets worse, then the slump will get prolonged for years. Sure, the Canadian economy is commodity driven...but with commodity prices plunging any reversal would require that the financial sector (think BOA and Citi) return to some semblance of normalcy. More lending may lead to more spending which may drive the commodities up.
Also, what GE reports in its next quarter is going to be very critical to the overall health of the economy and the confidence of investors. Dividend cutting never pleases a stock holder. So we have to wait and see...
Also, based on my location, I can see things firsthand.
All I wanted to say was deferring to the next year makes sense to me and called for an open discussion. I really appreciate your honest input.
Will keep you posted on my decision. Apologies for typos/grammar.
Thank you.
whoami29,
all valid and well-thought out points. i agree with you.
GE faces a dilemma of cutting its dividend or having its credit rating cut. devil and the deep sea, i should say.
given the true cost of credit raising its ugly head and increased regulation and government participation( or ownership) in the financial sector leading to decreased leverage, i would say its going to be a long while before we get to see the 'irrational' exuberance we have witnessed in the past decade. infrastructure spending will not have a huge impact on the US GDP, 70% of which is derived from consumer spending. increasing real estate valuations had made consumers feel "richer" which along with easier access to credit in the past caused them to spend their way to glory. given the subsequent bust, i have a real hard time conjecturing what could enable the consume to start spending again. one thing i am sure of is that you can't spend your way out of this present crisis. in my personal opinion, the landscape for businesses is going to change forever, and that also affects how an MBA is perceived in the marketplace.
i do agree with you that deferring the school decision makes more sense right now. i am also more inclined towards deferring my admit, though i don't really know what the chances of my being deferred are, since i had an admit for last year, which i deferred, since i didn't want to be graduating in this ugly situation.
one question for you: when you mention that your recent grad friends are still looking out for jobs, can you elaborate a bit about their backgrounds, the schools they attended, and the country/industry that they are seeking employment in? i have been having difficulty tracking that kind of information down.
i am based in toronto and if you are around anytime and want to meet-up for coffee/drinks, just pm me.
would like to get inputs from other people too on this topic. we can all help each other make the best decision.
regards,
IPityTheFool
all valid and well-thought out points. i agree with you.
GE faces a dilemma of cutting its dividend or having its credit rating cut. devil and the deep sea, i should say.
given the true cost of credit raising its ugly head and increased regulation and government participation( or ownership) in the financial sector leading to decreased leverage, i would say its going to be a long while before we get to see the 'irrational' exuberance we have witnessed in the past decade. infrastructure spending will not have a huge impact on the US GDP, 70% of which is derived from consumer spending. increasing real estate valuations had made consumers feel "richer" which along with easier access to credit in the past caused them to spend their way to glory. given the subsequent bust, i have a real hard time conjecturing what could enable the consume to start spending again. one thing i am sure of is that you can't spend your way out of this present crisis. in my personal opinion, the landscape for businesses is going to change forever, and that also affects how an MBA is perceived in the marketplace.
i do agree with you that deferring the school decision makes more sense right now. i am also more inclined towards deferring my admit, though i don't really know what the chances of my being deferred are, since i had an admit for last year, which i deferred, since i didn't want to be graduating in this ugly situation.
one question for you: when you mention that your recent grad friends are still looking out for jobs, can you elaborate a bit about their backgrounds, the schools they attended, and the country/industry that they are seeking employment in? i have been having difficulty tracking that kind of information down.
i am based in toronto and if you are around anytime and want to meet-up for coffee/drinks, just pm me.
would like to get inputs from other people too on this topic. we can all help each other make the best decision.
regards,
IPityTheFool
whoami29,
all valid and well-thought out points. i agree with you.
GE faces a dilemma of cutting its dividend or having its credit rating cut. devil and the deep sea, i should say.
given the true cost of credit raising its ugly head and increased regulation and government participation( or ownership) in the financial sector leading to decreased leverage, i would say its going to be a long while before we get to see the 'irrational' exuberance we have witnessed in the past decade. infrastructure spending will not have a huge impact on the US GDP, 70% of which is derived from consumer spending. increasing real estate valuations had made consumers feel "richer" which along with easier access to credit in the past caused them to spend their way to glory. given the subsequent bust, i have a real hard time conjecturing what could enable the consume to start spending again. one thing i am sure of is that you can't spend your way out of this present crisis. in my personal opinion, the landscape for businesses is going to change forever, and that also affects how an MBA is perceived in the marketplace.
i do agree with you that deferring the school decision makes more sense right now. i am also more inclined towards deferring my admit, though i don't really know what the chances of my being deferred are, since i had an admit for last year, which i deferred, since i didn't want to be graduating in this ugly situation.
one question for you: when you mention that your recent grad friends are still looking out for jobs, can you elaborate a bit about their backgrounds, the schools they attended, and the country/industry that they are seeking employment in? i have been having difficulty tracking that kind of information down.
i am based in toronto and if you are around anytime and want to meet-up for coffee/drinks, just pm me.
would like to get inputs from other people too on this topic. we can all help each other make the best decision.
regards,
IPityTheFool
Please inform adcom of your decision to defer your admit. It will help other applicants ready to join this year.
ipitythefool:
Yes. I can see the whole "MBA" landscape change as a result of this crisis. I am not an economics major, but I can tell that this is unlike the dot-com bubble. This one has attacked the global financial system - just look at what is happening in the UK. Anyway, I will stop rambling here and answer your question.
My friends (4 data points) graduated from top-15 US schools in . Backgrounds include: engineering, trading, journalist for Business Standard, and banking. Two of them wanted to get into strategy consulting (still looking) and the remaining into finance (got/accepted offers from two big firms that went down the drain).
Disclaimer: I am not here to spook people. Ivey is a great school, easily the best in Canada. I just want to hear from people who are in a similar boat (concerned about the economy/considering a deferral) and the thought process behind their decisions.
Profile:
M/29
BS/MS Engineering (non-IT)
5 years Intl work exp
GMAT 720
Thank you.
civ_ad, ipitythefool, whoami: You all make very valid points.
To quote civ_ad -
" d. Am I better off staying put at my current job (if employed) and defer my admission by upto an year, in case?"
I found this to be a very interesting question. I think my decision will boil down to answering this question. I guess once the decisions get out, the fun will begin :)Good Luck to everyone.
To quote civ_ad -
" d. Am I better off staying put at my current job (if employed) and defer my admission by upto an year, in case?"
I found this to be a very interesting question. I think my decision will boil down to answering this question. I guess once the decisions get out, the fun will begin :)Good Luck to everyone.
Guys, update from my side.
I've got my loans and passport formalities completed and finally submitted my visa application. It is in progress
This post (from my blog) is an attempt to provide a detailed outlook of how the visa application process works, for Indian candidates willing to pursue their education in Canada. I hope that this is of some help to you guys.
- Technically, the student visa for Canada is termed Study Permit
- One doesn't typically need the help a visa representative or a consultant. The processes is fairly simple and clear
- In India, the Canadian Immigration and Citizenship (CIC) High commission visa offices are located at New Delhi and Chandigarh. One can directly submit the application to these visa offices (or) at any of the VFS centres located at New Delhi, Chandigarh, Jalandhar, Chennai, Bangalore, Hyderabad, Mumbai, Ahmedabad and Kolkata.
- VFS Global is a Visa outsourcing Services Company that manages the administrative and non-judgmental tasks involved in the visa application process. They, as well, have partner with the Canadian high commission and most students who couldn't personally make it to the CIC offices at Delhi/Chandigarh, can use the VFS services. Refer to the website http://www.vfsglobal.com/ for more details.
- Most important of all, one needs to satisfy the following in the visa application, as well as the visa officer (if an interview is required)
- Satisfy that you will leave Canada after studies
- Satisfy that you have sufficient funds to cover the expenses for you and those who accompany you
- Satisfy that those who accompany you are genuine temporary residents that will leave along with you, post studies
- Satisfy that you will leave Canada after studies
- Typically for study permits, there are no interviews (May be required if decided by the visa officer). However, there could be a medical examination.
- From the moment one submits the application, it might take 2 weeks to receive an initial response (such as requests for interview/medical examination). The entire process might take 4 to 6 weeks. Make sure to apply early. One can apply up to 90 days in advance. March to June is considered the busiest period.
- The application form, student questionnaire, checklist, representative forms (if submitted via representative), and other forms can be downloaded at http://www.vfs-canada.co.in/visaapplication.html and http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/student.asp
- CIC charges CAD$ 125 as application processing fee. And an add ional Rs.866 (Service charges, courier charges and payment processing charges), if you are submitting the application through VFS.
- Once you submit the application to VFS, they will hand over the copy of your passport with their seal affixed. This must be handed over to the courier representative at the time of passport collection. VFS does provide an option to track the passport. Please note that Passport is the only original document that you need to submit.
- Following is the checklist of documents that I had submitted along with the completed application form. Please note that not all the documents mentioned below are mandatory. Please consult the official checklist for details and its up to you to logically decide what additional documents you would submit to supplement mandatory ones.
- Cover letter stating name of applicant, primary contact number, visa category, date of departure from India, program of study, name of school and list of all the enclosures.
- VFS Consent form
- CIC Checklist
- Completed Application Form
- Two Passport Size Photos
- Completed Personal Information Form
- Original Passport (New)
- Cop of Passport (New and Old)
- Letter of Acceptance
- Information from School stating tuition. living expenses. etc and letter on anticipated start/finish dates
- Copy of fee receipt (Caution deposit)
- Student Questionnaire
- Degree Certificates
- Mark sheet Transcripts
- 10th/12th Certificates
- Statement of Purpose
- Auditor's (Chartered Accountant's) Statement of net worth of assets of family
- Copy of GMAT score
- Notarized affidavit by Father stating he is ready to sponsor, etc
- Bank statements of my primary account for the past 24 months
- Bank statements of my Family's primary account for the past 24 months
- Letter from Bank stating Mr.??? Is a bona fide customer since ???, etc.
- Passbook copies
- Education Loan Sanction Letter
- Fixed Deposits Receipts
- IT Returns 2007-2008 (Self)
- IT Returns 2008-2009 (Self)
- Form16s (Self)
- Income tax Computation statements (Self)
- Father's ID Card
- Father's Pension Pay Order
- Experience Certificates with previous companies (Self)
- Offer letter current company (Self)
- Provident Fund Statements (Self)
- Salary Slip for the past two months (Self)
- Cover letter stating name of applicant, primary contact number, visa category, date of departure from India, program of study, name of school and list of all the enclosures.
- Submit the following documents, if applicable.
- Use of a Representative
- Personal Documentation on Marriage/Children Status
- Letter from dependant's company stating she/he would return to work after the period of study of the spouse
- Use of a Representative
1. Affidavit
Candidate's Name: ******
1st Sponsor's Name: ******
1st Sponsors' relationship to candidate: Father
2nd Sponsors Name: ******
2nd Sponsors' relationship to applicant: Mother
Sponsors' Mailing Address: ******
We, the above mentioned individuals are financial sponsors for ******, and certify that we agree to support the education of the person named above and living expenses for the person. We are aware that the official estimate of the annual cost for an international student attending the Richard Ivey school of Business, University of Western Ontario is CAD 106500. We are also aware that these estimates are subject to change without prior notice.
We do plan to make specific contributions to the support of the prospective student. We plan to contribute Rs. 25,00,000 (CAD 59,500) for ******'s study in Canada.
1st Sponsor's signature: ________________Date signed: ___________________
2nd Sponsor's signature: _______________ Date signed: ___________________
2. Useful links
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/study/study.asp
http://www.vfs-canada.co.in/
http://www.vfsglobal.com/
Following is the text from an email from Ivey to me after 1st round of Interview:
'As you may know, the admissions process at the Richard Ivey School of Business may include up to three interviews with various members of the committee. In her role as Relationship Manager, Karen Conway would like to request a telephone interview with you.'
Is it a a regular mail to everyone after 1st round? Or does it show that I am among the candidates who have to go for a 3rd round...(than usual Two rounds of Interviews)...
Any idea?
Hi Everybody,
I've had a thread running on BusinessWeek forums for quite some time now, I figured I'd do the same on PaGaLGuy.
I'm a current Ivey MBA student graduating in May 2009 willing to take any and all questions. Just, full disclosure before hand - I am not an International student so my knowledge about the immigration and PR status issues are limited, other than that everything is fair game!
Current Ivey MBA Student Blog
Ivey MBA Student Blog
Hey DizzyDogg - I saw your posts on BWeek and they were very informative.
I applied to Ivey and am waiting for a response.
Seeing as there is discussion about the recruitment situation, I was wondering if you could give your view on how successful current students have been at getting jobs. Are the mgmt consulting/finance firms hiring in similar numbers as past years? Is the situation getting worse/better? What %age of students has secured employment thus far, and how does it fair versus previous cohorts?
Also, how competitive is it to get interviews (both for intl and domestic students). What kind of credentials do successful applicants have?
Thanks,
Ivey_Hopeful
ivey_hopeful,
Absolutely, let me give you the low down:
I was wondering if you could give your view on how successful current students have been at getting jobs
I am in the current Spring cohort graduating in May. The Fall cohort is just entering a recruiting season right now - so I'll give you information regarding the Spring cohort. I would say approximately 50 - 60% of the students have jobs so far (this is growing every day). I believe if you plot our cohort relative to last year (at the same time) - we are outperforming. Whether this is a function of the quality of the class or not, I am not sure. Having said that, in absolute numbers I think the number of postings were the same or slightly lower (not by much).
Are the mgmt consulting/finance firms hiring in similar numbers as past years?
A couple points here:
1) Consulting-wise - the number of job offers across all schools has gone down. This is definitely in relation to cyclical nature of the industry as well as the fact that some firms are on total hiring freezes (along with layoffs). With that being said, Ivey's numbers in Consulting placement have probably gone up by an appreciable amount.
2) Finance got hit globally this year really hard. We still have quite a few people going into Investment Banking, Asset Management, Sales and Trading, Private Equity, Banking rotational programs, etc. but I know the competition for these jobs was fierce, and I would expect it to be like that for some time with a lot of applicants and fewer positions available.
Is the situation getting worse/better?
It's really too early to say. I can only speak really well from a Consulting standpoint (since that is what I am closer to) and I can say that it is really, firm and geography specific. For example, we had 3 people out of our class of 70 sign with Booz in Dubai. This in contrast to other firms that have recently had layoffs and are in a full hiring freeze. Since Consulting projects are sold (usually) quarters in advance the foresight of many of these firms is only 6 months 'ish - and anything beyond that is cloudy, compounding that is the fact that they are hiring for 1 year out from when they are actually interviewing you. So, I can't really give you a definitive answer, but what I can guarantee you is that 95% of the firms are ALWAYS looking for talent, and if you have the goods they'll take you in good times or in bad. They are all trying to avoid what happened in 2001 when they had complete hiring freezes and 3-4 years later they found they had a real dearth of people at the Engagement Manager level.
how competitive is it to get interviews (both for intl and domestic students)?
I wouldn't say there is a big difference in if you are a domestic or an International student for getting interviews (for any industry). The best thing I can suggest for any International student (no matter what school you go to) is to start your PR paperwork ASAP. For Banks and Consulting firms it won't matter - but for some Industry jobs they need you to be able to legally work in Canada/(whatever country) beforehand. There is always a natural delineation of much of the class into the separate industries (Finance, Consulting, Marketing, Non Profit, Tech, etc.). So, the people you are competing with for certain positions get pared down considerably. Will everyone get an interview that applies? Definitely not. In some industries prior experience helps (Tech, IB), in other industries they are looking for intellectual horsepower and impact irrespective of past experience (Consulting), in other industries they are looking at your ECs more closely(Non-Profit). I can be more specific, if you choose an industry but there are different factors that make you more competitive to get the interview depending on the industry. All in all, I think it would be safe to say that all students got at least 1 interview with a firm in their dream industry. With of course some applicants getting a lot more.
What kind of credentials do successful applicants have?
The 'sexier' jobs look at the whole person very holistically - past work experience, grades to date, extra curriculars, some ask for GMAT scores, undergrad transcripts. Once again, there is no one size fits all successful applicant because firms are sometimes looking for people with a specific background, or sometimes just a different background then what they have.
Let me know if you have more questions or need clarification!
Ivey MBA Students Blog
Ivey MBA Student Blog
Hi Everyone:
I have a Spring09 admit to Ivey (thought I'd register and get some feedback , have been a lurker lol)
I am wondering if there is anyone with a business background? Do you think that the Ivey MBA will focus your career choice and provide the value added, considering a some of the things taught might not be new to someone with a business background.
Also, I am wondering if there is anyone else who is in the process of looking for housing etc. If you already have a place, what was the process involved?
I have a Spring09 admit to Ivey (thought I'd register and get some feedback , have been a lurker lol)
I am wondering if there is anyone with a business background? Do you think that the Ivey MBA will focus your career choice and provide the value added, considering a some of the things taught might not be new to someone with a business background.
Also, I am wondering if there is anyone else who is in the process of looking for housing etc. If you already have a place, what was the process involved?
Hi Everyone:
I have a Spring09 admit to Ivey (thought I'd register and get some feedback , have been a lurker lol)
I am wondering if there is anyone with a business background? Do you think that the Ivey MBA will focus your career choice and provide the value added, considering a some of the things taught might not be new to someone with a business background.
Also, I am wondering if there is anyone else who is in the process of looking for housing etc. If you already have a place, what was the process involved?
Whats your profile tango81?
Got waitlisted. Now it is a painful waiting game. It makes it tricky because of the loan process in the US. Ivey is the only school I applied to and I will join if I get in.
Good Luck to everyone!
- DG
p2here SaysWhats your profile tango81?
27 / Female
GMAT : 650
Work ex: almost 4 years. Worked in advertising and the Public Sector.
GPA: 4.0 Bachelor of Commerce
Involved in various community activities.
Hey Dizzy, great to have you in this forum.
I will be starting at Ivey this spring. Planning to arrive there by the 2nd week of April.
I will be starting at Ivey this spring. Planning to arrive there by the 2nd week of April.
Just had an interview .. Didnt go well .
No notification about next call . She mentioned
will get admission results by end of month , since session starting soon.
think screwed up big time ..
no mention of whether u will get next call or not :oops:.
Regular questions .
Just had an interview .. Didnt go well .
No notification about next call . She mentioned
will get admission results by end of month , since session starting soon.
think screwed up big time ..
no mention of whether u will get next call or not :oops:.
Regular questions .
Whats your profile? I believe Ivey gives much importance to profile...