International educational options beyond the MBA

Hi baccardisprite,

Awesome thread. I am currently working at a big indian IT MNC.(been here 6 months). I initially planned to work for a couple of years before going in for my MBA.But after coming across the masters in management thing,i'm thinking why not make the transition to management if it can be done earlier and more imporantly if it gets me a better job. I would like to know how is the "masters in general management" programme at RSM erasmus?
If i do, i would apply next year. I know its advisable to get 5+ years of exp. and then go for MBA...but i dont like my current job.Software development just does'nt cut it for me. Regards Che10


The only country where a Masters degree in management offers any value in your early 20's is in India, so if you're in a rush to get out of software, stay in India and prepare for the CAT or similar exam later this year / early next year and try getting into "management" then.

A Masters in Management abroad is of little value if you bring nothing to your employer except your education. Besides - Management in itself is a pretty vague term. Think about what "functionally" you'd want to do in your work - like operations, sales, marketing, finance, supply chain etc... you'll have to do several years (10-15 years) in 2 or more functional specialist areas in order to position yourself as a general "manager".

All the best
Baccardisprite
Hi Baccardisprite,
Thank you for such a useful thread. I have just completed BMS from NM college, Bombay with Finance specialism. I am Planning to go to UK for higher studies. I did not appear for any entrance exam viz. CAT/XAT..... , so wont be doing MBA. I had applied to universities in UK for Msc Finance and have got calls from University of Reading, HENLI business school(Msc Investment Management) and University of Nottingham(Msc Finance) ...course starting october, 2010. I am also planning to prepare for CFA while doing the above courses. I dont plan to work after this, will mostly get into business. I am doing the above courses to enhance my Financial Knowledge. Please advise if the above mentioned courses and the Universities are good and worth spending so much. Also, if by any chance u have information about the above universities, please help me decide which one to select.


I would actually recommend getting into business now, learning some of the ropes for a few years, then going for a management course. However, since you're at the point of no return (decision made :-)) already; and you seem to have a business you will come back to (or inherit); I think Henley Business School (which is a sister institution to the ICMA center at the University of Reading) is a better known school than the University of Nottingham....

If you have the resources to pay for your education, why not try a more well known school - like the Cass School M.Sc Finance in the City University of London OR the Imperial College Business School's M.Sc in Finance (Univ of London) or the LSE Masters in Finance??? Why no apply to the best school you can apply to?

Anyway... all the best
Baccardisprite
Hi baccardisprite,
Really Awesome work.
I need your help.
My Acads are 10-66%, 12-81% and B.TECH-68% in Petroleum refining and Petrochemical Technology from Laxminayaran Institute of Technology, Nagpur, which comes in top 15 chemical engineering coll across India.
I also received certificate of merit from university.Past B.Tech from last 2 yrs,I have been working in a MNC designing company, which mainly designs polyester plants. I am planning my PG next yr so that my work ex will be 3 yrs,
1.I read you had mentioned something called Quasi Management can you please explain it in detail.
2.will my current profile helpful for such profile.
3.Is there any other courses where blend of Technical and Management can be done.
4.What are the chances of getting scholarships in these type of courses.
5.I dont want to be in research or do MS in core chemical but I want to do my PG where a good weightage is given to my profile, plz suggest the courses for the same.

Thanks in advance,
Jatin


1. Please read the first 2-3 posts on this thread and my conversations with PG forum posters called Najmuddin & Kushagra452... You'll find everything you need. It's really difficult for me to type all that detail again :-). Thanks for your understanding.

2. & 3. Yes - you have the makings of a good profile, but don't rush. Patiently acquire 5 years of experience, some valuable and applicable skills in manufacturing plant design / core engineering, then apply to technical / management courses. Become at least a team leader so your future employers will have something to go by when interviewing and recruiting you. Prepare well for both GRE and GMAT and try to get good scores i.e 700+ in the GMAT and 750+/650+ in the Q/V sections of the GRE. Suggested programs:

- LGO @ MIT - Global Operations Management MBA | MIT. For your Engineering option in this program, recommend apply to the MIT Engineering Systems Division and specialize in Manufacturing Systems & Supply Chain.
- MBA @ Ross / U Michigan (with Manufacturing / Operations specialization) - Tauber Manufacturing Institute
- M.S in Industrial & Systems Engineering @ Georgia Institute of Technology (Operations / Supply Chains) - specialize in Industrial Systems and Economic Decision Analysis
- M.Sc in Management Science & Engineering @ Stanford University School of Engineering.

4. LGO @ MIT offers a 75% Tuition Scholarship to all admits to the program, for all the others, a good GRE score, strong academic + professional references, a good research / thesis topic and a strong / clear / career focussed statement of purpose should be able to get you an admit along with some financial aid (research assistantship or outright scholarship).

5. Weightage is given to profile when you have the weight of skills and experience behind you.

Stay patient in your company / industry, learn and assimilate all you can, then strike out when you have a good set of skills in your bag that you can offer to your post Masters employer.

All the best
Baccardisprite
Hi bacardisprite!
First a little bit about myself. I have been working for 4 years (presently) in Infosys. No international experience. Laurels and achievements at work. Not-so-great acads (69% in Electronics engg but 90% in 12th and 10th), very good extra curriculars(community service while being school prefect,achievements in music, debates,movie making, trained in martial arts, avid quizzer), okayish community service (genuine stuff :-))..I have lots of achievements for my resume, but who doesn't these days (real or not ). Basically, a fairly common profile...

I gave GMAT in 2009 without much drive and interest. Managed to scrape through with 680(47, 36, 5.5) and appeared for TOEFL ibt (114). Last year, I could not pursue the application process passionately due to personal issues. So I completely missed out on R1 and R2 for all schools. R3 was hopeless. But, in the process, I have learned that I genuinely wish to pursue a management degree abroad. I would love to pursue management in Technology and IT Consulting itself. The IT field is fine by me, I like it here and I have no illusions about my chances elsewhere. Since I am not specifically aiming for a career shift, I am perfectly ok with either a US MBA or a European degree.

I have come up with a (revised) target list for 2010 app season -

MBA
Manchester (UK)
Lancaster (UK)
RSM (Netherlands)
Purdue Krannert (US)
Maryland Smith (US)

MIS
Kelley (Indiana)
Eller (Arizona)
Mays (TAMU)
Robinson (GSU)

Based on what I have researched, my MIS targets seem to be quite high.
Still, what is your personal opinion of MIS vis-a-vis my aim of staying in the IT field?
Why do you think it isnt viewed on the same scale as an MBA?
Do you think are my post graduation placement position will be better off if I do an MIS from Kelley, Eller or TAMU than an MBA from a Second Tier Univ like Manchester,Lancaster, Purdue,Smith etc?
Strictly speaking in terms of brand names, how much weightage do you think I should give to college and for the course?In ur opinion, would you trade off an MBA for an MIS, if you got the degree from a better ranked MIS college like Kelley Indiana?

Secondly, Do you think I MUST re-take the GMAT for my target schools?


Fair enough, you're clear about your career goals - IT / Consulting.

Recommend an MBA with elective / specializations in Technology, Systems Engineering and Operations Management, Strategy; and look at schools affiliated to universities that also have strong schools of engineering, those kinds of schools are best found in the US. With 5 years next summer, you'll be in the experience ball park of all major schools.

Don't underestimate your profile, do your best to convey your passions and reasons for your career and personal decisions; and how your career goals will require further education like an MBA. Be specific about what your skills gaps are that you want to address through the MBA.

Also advise another crack at the GMAT as soon as practically possible and try getting somewhere in the 730-750 range. If you managed 680 in a not so serious attempt, surely you can do better with some disciplined preparation? You seem to be articulate enough so should manage reasonably in verbal (your quant is obviously good). As good as your profile is, your professional demographic is competitive, so while you might write good essays to rationalize the need for an MBA & now, you might want to have a superior GMAT to give yourself a chance to win a tie-break with a applicant similar in profile to yourself (Indian or otherwise).

Also, I'd advise you to be more ambitious in your choice of schools, based on the criteria above. Look at the list below and choose no more than 5 schools that could help you meet your goals (Purdue & UMD are both excellent Technical universities as well):

MIT (Sloan), UC Berkeley (Haas), Carnegie Mellon (Tepper), U Michigan (Ross), Cornell (Johnson), Purdue (Krannet), UMD (Smith), UT Austin (McCombs), UIUC, U Wisconsin (Madison),

All the best
Baccardisprite

hey,
you can get connected to b-schools
http://www.************.com/

hey, look for some very good b-schools in the country and abroad @
http://www.************.com/

hi sir,
i m engineering graduate 2010 passout.I m preparing for cat 10.after that can u suggest me any certification course like cfa ,which i can do after dec 10 suitable for mba profile in future

hi sir,
i m engineering graduate 2010 passout.I m preparing for cat 10.after that can u suggest me any certification course like cfa ,which i can do after dec 10 suitable for mba profile in future


The most suitable "course" for a future MBA is work experience. If you don't make the CAT this year, continue on your job for at least 4-5 years, understand what you really want to do long term. If finance is a long term career for you, yes - start preparing for the CFA as well. All the best Baccardisprite
sdaryanani Says
You are indeed correct my friend and believe me Nyenrode will be the best decision you have made. In my Humble opinion if you are planning to stay in Netherlands after your education then i would go for Nyenrode over Erasmus any day. I have visited Netherlands specifically to visit the various campuses in Netherlands and I have decided to only apply for Nyenrode


Dear mba_holland,

Do not live in illusion !!! Dutch may be liberal minded people in Europe, but in my opinion, the corporate culture is not as liberal as you would expect. Therefore, you may get away easily in the social circle by speaking plain English, but not in the corporate world. JUST NO OPTION AT ALL !!! In the current situation, almost all the companies need people to speak Dutch to consider you as a eligible candidate for a job vacancy. You can do three things to qualify or disqualify my above statement and more importantly to wipe out your wrong perception of Netherlands job market:
1) Check on the websites of companies where you want to work, and see if they hire only English speaking people
2) Check the websites of 4-5 recruitment consultants in netherlands and their job postings, if possible, even call them and speak to them to understand the current situation. (they will tell you bcoz u dont speak Dutch, your options are very few)
3) Check the placements of international full-time MBA students at Nyenrode for the last 3 years, and see how many have managed to survive in Netherlands. (remember, most of the people come to Nyenrode with an intention to work in Netherlands. So, number of International full-time MBA students from Nyenrode placed in Netherlands will be a good measure to understand the job opportunities in Netherlands for non-dutch speakers)

DON'T JUST GET ATTRACTED BY THE BEAUTIFUL CAMPUS AND THE CASTLE AT NYENRODE. MBA is more about quality education and the professional career after that, than just a 12 months vacation in the middle of woods with the 13th century castle at the backdrop.

Hope some targeted and focused research will help you make a wise decision.

P.S. just for my intro, I am an fresh alumni of Nyenrode MBA program..

Good luck.
Thanks Baccardisprite !!!

I decided to go for Nyenrode. The job market in Europe is not in the best shape right now. So from ROI perspective, Nyenrode seemed to be the best bet. I talked to few alumni from both the schools too. I have few contacts in Europe(Holland) and hopefully I can leverage them post MBA. The reason for choosing Netherlands as MBA destination was more than that. I believe that the Dutch are the most liberal minded people in Europe. " The Americans of Europe" :). And Holland is the only nation in western Europe where one can easily get by speaking plain English.

Cheers !!!



Dear mba_holland,

Do not live in illusion !!! Dutch may be liberal minded people in Europe, but in my opinion, the corporate culture is not as liberal as you would expect. Therefore, you may get away easily in the social circle by speaking plain English, but not in the corporate world. JUST NO OPTION AT ALL !!! In the current situation, almost all the companies need people to speak Dutch to consider you as a eligible candidate for a job vacancy. You can do three things to qualify or disqualify my above statement and more importantly to wipe out your wrong perception of Netherlands job market:
1) Check on the websites of companies where you want to work, and see if they hire only English speaking people
2) Check the websites of 4-5 recruitment consultants in netherlands and their job postings, if possible, even call them and speak to them to understand the current situation. (they will tell you bcoz u dont speak Dutch, your options are very few)
3) Check the placements of international full-time MBA students at Nyenrode for the last 3 years, and see how many have managed to survive in Netherlands. (remember, most of the people come to Nyenrode with an intention to work in Netherlands. So, number of International full-time MBA students from Nyenrode placed in Netherlands will be a good measure to understand the job opportunities in Netherlands for non-dutch speakers)

DON'T JUST GET ATTRACTED BY THE BEAUTIFUL CAMPUS AND THE CASTLE AT NYENRODE. MBA is more about quality education and the professional career after that, than just a 12 months vacation in the middle of woods with the 13th century castle at the backdrop.

Hope some targeted and focused research will help you make a wise decision.

P.S. just for my intro, I am an fresh alumni of Nyenrode MBA program..

Good luck.

Sir,
I have a different profile; Kindly guide as I seriously want to regain what I lost due to 6 years of IAS exam preparation
Age: 33 years.
Acads : Good
Graduated in B.E. (C.S.) in 2000
work ex : will be 5 years in a leading Public sector Bank (SBI)by 2012 at middle management level.
GMAT: 740
I am married with a 3 year old kid.
I plan to apply for PGPX-IIMA & IIMC; ISB; NUS;
I want to go for MBA to accelerate my career both in terms of cadre & Salary
Cannot afford more than 20 Lacs (that 2 wid 10 lac loan)
Please provide me an honest reply;
Do I stand any chance
Are there some other colleges I should apply

post removed

Hi baccardisprite,

Need some words of wisdom

I've been working with a telecom major (Ericsson) for about two years now.
However, I have IT profile. (a brief mentioned in my signature)

My post MBA target industry is : High Tech.
Why ?
I want to progress from Technical to the business line of the company.Not looking for a career switch.As a long term goal I'd want to be in a executive position with a software tech company. Looking into the near future, I'd like to make progression from tech side of things into perhaps, product management/strategy/marketing & sales for Tech companies.


Location preference would be : Silicon Valley / India.

Now,I am Considering some JD programs besides a hardcore 'MBA'.

I am interested in MBA + MS ( Computer Science ) or equivalent programs.
Why ?
I believe a MS will provide more breath to my existing knowledge and skill set relative to my target industry. MBA will help me learn the necessary business skills.

Some of the programs I have highlighted in my RnD are:
MIT's LGO Progam.
UCLA's MBA/MCS (Computer Science) program
Ross's MSIM program

Can you comment on my decision to look for them ?
Will they provide a extra advantage when looking for my target industry ?
Are they recommended for a profile like me ? (Considering I'd have around 32 months exp. at the time of matriculation,etc)

What are the other programs that you recommend ?

I am inclined towards such programs from the US only as I believe it will be difficult to find relevant jobs in my target industry if I pursue from Europe( my other foreign option). Your comments ?

And I would appreciate if you could also comment on my choice of B-Schools for a pure MBA considering my profile and future goals :

MIT Sloan, Tepper, Stanford ,UCLA Anderson,Haas.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,
trailblazer123

Sir,
I have a different profile; Kindly guide as I seriously want to regain what I lost due to 6 years of IAS exam preparation
Age: 33 years.
Acads : Good
Graduated in B.E. (C.S.) in 2000
work ex : will be 5 years in a leading Public sector Bank (SBI)by 2012 at middle management level.
GMAT: 740
I am married with a 3 year old kid.
I plan to apply for PGPX-IIMA & IIMC; ISB; NUS;
I want to go for MBA to accelerate my career both in terms of cadre & Salary
Cannot afford more than 20 Lacs (that 2 wid 10 lac loan)
Please provide me an honest reply;
Do I stand any chance
Are there some other colleges I should apply

Dear arvindm2309,

With a more-than-decent GMAT score and over 5 years of experience, I'd suggest that you consider the more rigorous IIM executive programs than the ISB's, which I think is most beneficial for people with 2-5 years of work-ex.

The IIMs groom you for senior leadership roles, whereas the ISB is best for entry-midlevel managerial roles. However, you may have to wait for another year to qualify for the exec-programs (check out the IIMs' websites for details).

Having a family is obviously going to make a full-time MBA more challenging, but I'm sure you'll be able to work something out.

All the best!

I'm aware of a thread for IIM Lucknow's executive MBA - the IPMX. Posting link for everyone's benefit.

I'm sure the other institutues have their own threads as well.

http://www.pagalguy.com/discussions/iim-lucknow1-yr-residential-mba-ipmx-admissions-and-beyond-2011-2012-25050015

Hey BacardiSprite

I went through the entire thread in one go and I found it to be highly informative.
Now coming to my question.
What is your opinion on the Master of Engineering Management Programme in Dartmouth College.
After working for 3 years as a design engineer in a Steel Manufacturing Sector, I feel the need to learn the other aspects of business, like finance,marketing.operations management.I would like to have a career in engineering/technology and one of my short term ambition is to become a project manager.I have gone through many courses and the degree at dartmouth really suited my interests.The course at Dartmouth has a very indepth focus in project management.
I have gone through other similar programmes in Georgia Tech,Stanford but I found it be too in depth in quants.I think these programmes are ideal if one wants to enter into consulting.
Please give your opinion on the MEM programme at Dartmouth.This would help me decide.
Cheers
Anirudh

Hey,

I am a fresh BE(Mechanical) passout. I want to get into consulting. I know that most consultancies hire MBAs only. Is there any MS programme that would help me in this regard.

Thanks

hey..
i am anshul and interested to do Ms in Finance/Fin Engg or similiar courses from US/UK/Canada/other countroes in Europe.

Profile
B.Tech Chemical From IIT GPA 8.0 (absolute)
XII 71% and X 86%
CFA Level 1 (AIMR)
Work Ex 25 months in a Prop Trading Firm As a Derivative Trader..


Can somebody help me to choose out colleges/universities for Fall'11.
I mean which colleges i should target according to my profile.

Thanks

Hi Baccardi,

Thank you for the great thread. :cheers:.

In your threads, you advise us to go for 5-6 years of work-exp. before pursuing an MBA with which I totally agree.
But, of late, I see the trend where B-schools look for students with around 3 yeears of exp. (e.g.: Harvard; more than 1/3rd of the 2011 intake is students with upto 3 years of exp.)
Also, I have heard that recruiters look for candidates who are less than 30 as they are 'more groomable'.

-Can you throw some light on such trends? Is it really happening or are there only a few instances that can not be generalized?
-I will be really grateful if you can also tell us how age factor affects a candidate who plans for a career change post MBA?

Regards,
R

Sir,
I have a different profile; Kindly guide as I seriously want to regain what I lost due to 6 years of IAS exam preparation
Age: 33 years.
Acads : Good
Graduated in B.E. (C.S.) in 2000
work ex : will be 5 years in a leading Public sector Bank (SBI)by 2012 at middle management level.
GMAT: 740
I am married with a 3 year old kid.
I plan to apply for PGPX-IIMA & IIMC; ISB; NUS;
I want to go for MBA to accelerate my career both in terms of cadre & Salary
Cannot afford more than 20 Lacs (that 2 wid 10 lac loan)
Please provide me an honest reply;
Do I stand any chance
Are there some other colleges I should apply


Apologies to you & other posters for the delayed response as have not been able to log in to PG for several weeks (work & personal commitments).

You haven't really mentioned what you want to do - everyone goes for further education to "accelerate careers".

Given your personal circumstances and the (financial) restrictions you have placed on yourself, recommend either the ISB or the PGPX offerings of the IIMs.

All the best