International educational options beyond the MBA

First - are you interested in Finance? If yes, then make sure you signal that to the business schools you apply to and future employers (anywhere) through either experience or targeted professional education - that you're serious about a career in Finance. Since you're not in a finance career now, I'd recommend passing at least 2 levels of the CFA before you go to school, and working hard on the GMAT and try scoring 720+ (banks would want to see something that reflects your academic & numerate ability).

SFU is a 2/3rd tier university in Canada. Even with a work-permit policy that's friendlier to Internationals than that in the UK/US, what makes you think going to a 2/3rd tier university in Canada makes it any good there versus 2/3rd universities in the UK/US for those markets?

I have always recommended in more than one post to go to the best university you can in the geography you try to access. Therefore, if this is Canada, then you're way better off going to Rotman, Ivey, Queens or Schulich for your MBA. These are the Top Canadian schools and seeing what little you've posted about your profile, you'd be at least competitive for those schools (if you got a 700+ GMAT + top notch recommendations & write good essays). Why SFU?

You'd have the same money issues later as well? You'd be paying off a lotz of debt for a Masters in Finance you really don't need. Nearly 4 years of experience is actually at the low end, but you'd get a look in at the schools MBA programs if you had all the criteria I described above.

Think it over and post again
Baccardisprite


Thanks a lot for the insightful post!!! I am seeing this reply just now and in the meantime I spoke to the handful of people whose opinion I really respect and was admonished by all of them in the similar fashion! :P

Yes, I am interested in finance. I've gone through the "Why finance" etc threads in this forum too. I have written your recommendations down in big bold words and am going to stick to it. Simon Fraser was just an example but I have understood the message. I don't want to penny wise and pound foolish.

Thank you again for not mincing any words and laying out everything clearly. 😃

Hi baccardisprite ,

First i would like say a ton of thanks for u , because your thread made me to think about my future which i almost given up ( in d sense following most of the ppl )

ok , about me

I completed my Btech in a non reputed engineering college in Andhra Pradesh with 74 %

Intermediate 94 %

SSC 90 %

I m placed in 2 software companies

When i m pursuing my btech I thought of doing MBA ( jus because i hate my engineering studies ...reasons may b many)...so I used to think about complete change in my career ...so obviously i found MBA wil be the one

I appeared for cat exam (to be frank i havent prepared for exam )....n result was very bad obviously

Almost many classmates of mine are going for MS ..as i m not interested in technical side i gave up MS option

and the remaining students were going for jobs ( jus b4 2 hrs i m with the same mind ) as my date of joining is 21st july

I want to study some thing which i am really interested in (all des days i m unable to find out ..what that was ?)


But now i m really worried ...i should choose my interest atleast now

I want to work in Banking , stock market r any other financial institutions ...n some related sectors .......
after working for some years( when i am financially sound ) i want to be an Enterpreneur ( this may be laughable now..but i m sure of doing this )

To be frank i know nothing more than MBA ( as preferred by many )

so i thought of getting work experience n den do MBA

but now i m not sure that my mind wil stick to same after 2 years

I heard abt LSE , as i am really interested for a complete change in my course of study i would like to study the courses relative to Finance , Economics

So can u please guide me about the courses which i should choose ( considering my interest)

Does LSE offers any courses for freshers ( with out any work ex ) like me

If so , does these courses require any particular background ?( as i am btech student , i wil be new to those subjests ....)

I have no other source except this site....as i m from a small district...ppl r least bothered to know abt these...they jus go on for MS r MBA mostly ...

finallyy which one wil be d best ?
1) MBA
OR
2) MASTERS IN ECONOMICS OR FINANCE

Hi baccardisprite,

Firstly, its an amazing thread brother! Thank you so much!! Its been really insightful to read all the posts since 2008.

My specific career query ( and I am really thankful from the bottom of my heart for your guidance) is regarding the investment banking domain.

I did my schooling with an 87% in class 12 and 92 % in class 10. I am just graduated from University of Delhi, specializing in Investment and Finance.

I have worked at a lot of organizations and did varying internships to turn my profile into a well rounded one during my undergraduate years.

I worked for an year at AIESEC, which is the world's largest youth organization, where I led a team of 15 people, who belonged to 7 different countries. I also interned at a national newspaper, worked in an M & A firm, was on the research team for a Penguin India book regarding the Commonwealth Games and also founded a startup which seeked to connect the University students with corporate and focused on finance and economy deliberations at the University level.

I also got a freelance consulting assignment with an international consulting firm, based in Central Europe for a due diligence assignment. Besides that, I did 3 to 4 more internships at NGOs, etc.

I also founded two college societies that focused on investment banking case studies. I badly wanted to join an M & A firm. The problem is that I dun come from a target school. Though my college is respected for its academics, its not popular with recruiters owing to its conception in 1984 compared with SRCC and the like which have been there from the early 1900s.

I interviewed for an M & A role at a Big 4 firm recently, had a killer interview, but then they wudn take me as the position was based in Mumbai and I am based In Delhi. The starting stipend being 15,000 and 23k after 6 months would not have been possible to afford a life in Mumbai, according to them.

I have an offer from KPMG in hand, but its internal audit, and in the backoffice, while I badly want to be in M & A, as I am really passionate towards it!

I am going to give CFA Level 1 in June 2012. Do you think a Masters Programme from Universities like Warwick and Essex can help me land up in an investment banking profile. What are the other programs at popular schools and how much would they actually cost me?

Most importantly, would they give me a job after that like an Indian MBA does, in the Investment Banking domain.

Kindly advice : )

Thank you so much!!

Looking forward to hear back from you soon!! 😃 😃

I'm a B.Sc(Electronics) graduate with 5 years of experience in IT (SAP Business Intelligence). Acads not very good 😞 (10th - 86%; 12th - 58%; B.Sc - 65%)

Planning to write GMAT in Aug-Sept and apply to European/Asian B-Schools. I was told that most of the schools in US ask for a 4 years degree. Is this correct? Are there any programs in US which consider a 3 years degree? I hope in Europe, they accept a 3 year degree as well.
Please throw some light on this.

Kindly suggest some good MBA/Masters/M.Sc program in Europe/Asia suitable for my education and work experience.

Thanks in advance :-P
Walker


Historically, this was the case as schools sought candidates with under-grad education from Internationals (time-wise) consistent with US under-grads. The Indian 3 year degree was consistent with most UK 3 year degrees so UK schools accepted and accept the Indian 3 year degree as an undergrad degree. There's anecdotal evidence to suggest that the 4 year degree policy may have changed in schools with large international student bodies. Please check the individual websites of the schools, and if the policy is not specifically stated, then feel free to ask the question to the adcomm via email - they're normally responsive to such queries. The Wharton S2S boards (S2S Forums - The Wharton MBA) are an excellent and reliable source of information.

You don't choose schools suitable for your education and experience. You choose schools where the program will enable you to achieve your career objective. Think about your career first, then look at what schools to attend. Right now, your questions make it sound like education is an objective, which is a wrong approach.

Take your time, think and post again.
All the best
Baccardisprite
i graduated in a mech engineering degree from a top college in south india, and now currently working in one of the big-4 consulting firms in their consulting practice. my job involves working on strategy, IT audits, vendor assessments etc (basically core consulting, but in IT sphere).

my interest lies in Finance . stuff like investment banking, hedge funds, M&As; etc. but at the same time, i love the work culture in my current firm and the general work i do in consulting, though i am restricted to IT sphere. i wish to study further either in a year or two. i am focusing on an MS in Finance from a top UK university . intend to write gmat soon, and start applying. i have decent grades in undergrad level.

i am hoping to complete my MS in Fin, and then maybe get back into my firm, but in the M&A; team, or maybe get into any good investment bank etc. my company also follows a decent system where its easy for a former employee to apply again after getting more education and have good changes of getting an interview call.

the question lies with whether its worth doing the MS in Finance, or would it be worth pursuing an MBA in india from any of the top 10-20 colleges, and still maybe land up a good job in the field i'm looking at. another option i read up about is the CFA program. i have heard, though its hard and takes time/effort, its a worthy program to enlist for.

would that help me any way in my endeavour? looking forward to guidance and help here.


If you want to get into M&A; / Transaction Advisory / Corporate Dev roles, your Big 4 should be an ideal place to try getting in there, what with the varied profiles of assignments undertaken! What you're doing is the knowledge and skill base for the more strategic roles you seek going forward - so take the time, learn your job, interact with clients, build a bag of skills and most importantly, become someone the firm can trust to put in front of clients.... That takes time and experience that no education can bring. Consider yourself fortunate to be where you are. Don't hold yourself to any deadline saying you need a Masters in 2-3- or 5 years. Wrong approach. Go for the Masters when you are absolutely sure that you have the "professional" skills to attract employers post any Masters degree (read my posts about the 75/25 rule - 75% professional skills, 25% education).

You are correct that an M&A; role requires competence in Finance. Once you have a good level of experience (takes 5-7 years in my book), then you can either opt to go for a Masters in Finance, or an MBA with a strong set of Finance & Strategy electives in a strong finance school (LBS, Wharton, Chicago, Columbia, NYU etc). As you have correctly surmised, you are likely to see your current employer leave the door open for you to re-enter, because you have the Pre-MBA skills transferable to the new role in M&A;/Transaction advisory, and the education to enhance and use those skills with clients. Use these years to learn, and build your bag of skills and acquire new ones. Learn a foreign language like Chinese, German or Spanish. In the next 3-4 years, try and clear the CFA to send your employer a signal that you're serious about making the shift in a few years, also to send a clear signal to adcomms that you're serious about a career in finance and M&A; advisory!

Do the things that build a platform for you, and give you the best chances to be successful in your quest.

All the best
Baccardisprite
I completed my Btech in a non reputed engineering college in Andhra Pradesh with 74 %

Intermediate 94 %

SSC 90 %

I want to work in Banking , stock market r any other financial institutions ...n some related sectors .......
after working for some years( when i am financially sound ) i want to be an Enterpreneur ( this may be laughable now..but i m sure of doing this )

To be frank i know nothing more than MBA ( as preferred by many )

so i thought of getting work experience n den do MBA

but now i m not sure that my mind wil stick to same after 2 years

I heard abt LSE , as i am really interested for a complete change in my course of study i would like to study the courses relative to Finance , Economics

So can u please guide me about the courses which i should choose ( considering my interest)

Does LSE offers any courses for freshers ( with out any work ex ) like me

If so , does these courses require any particular background ?( as i am btech student , i wil be new to those subjests ....)

I have no other source except this site....as i m from a small district...ppl r least bothered to know abt these...they jus go on for MS r MBA mostly ...

finallyy which one wil be d best ?
1) MBA
OR
2) MASTERS IN ECONOMICS OR FINANCE


The Finance Masters Programs offered by LSE and several UK schools are actually designed for people who wish to get into finance careers early. However, the UK's job market is decidedly unfriendly to non-EU citizens right now, as the country recovers all too slowly from a crippling 2009-10 recession. Please look at some posts between other posters and myself (posts# 860-880 on this thread) where I have tried to articulate why it is risky to go to the UK now.

If you are hell-bent on an MBA, then India is the best place for a person like you. Take one of the jobs on offer, then use your free time to prepare for the CAT/XAT and try getting into an Indian B.school like the IIMs, Bajaj, Sp Jain, MDI, IMT, FMS, XLRI or similar.

All the best
Baccardisprite
I did my schooling with an 87% in class 12 and 92 % in class 10. I am just graduated from University of Delhi, specializing in Investment and Finance.

I have worked at a lot of organizations and did varying internships to turn my profile into a well rounded one during my undergraduate years.

I worked for an year at AIESEC, which is the world's largest youth organization, where I led a team of 15 people, who belonged to 7 different countries. I also interned at a national newspaper, worked in an M & A firm, was on the research team for a Penguin India book regarding the Commonwealth Games and also founded a startup which seeked to connect the University students with corporate and focused on finance and economy deliberations at the University level.

I also got a freelance consulting assignment with an international consulting firm, based in Central Europe for a due diligence assignment. Besides that, I did 3 to 4 more internships at NGOs, etc.

I also founded two college societies that focused on investment banking case studies. I badly wanted to join an M & A firm. The problem is that I dun come from a target school. Though my college is respected for its academics, its not popular with recruiters owing to its conception in 1984 compared with SRCC and the like which have been there from the early 1900s.

I interviewed for an M & A role at a Big 4 firm recently, had a killer interview, but then they wudn take me as the position was based in Mumbai and I am based In Delhi. The starting stipend being 15,000 and 23k after 6 months would not have been possible to afford a life in Mumbai, according to them. I have an offer from KPMG in hand, but its internal audit, and in the backoffice, while I badly want to be in M & A, as I am really passionate towards it!

I am going to give CFA Level 1 in June 2012. Do you think a Masters Programme from Universities like Warwick and Essex can help me land up in an investment banking profile. What are the other programs at popular schools and how much would they actually cost me?

Most importantly, would they give me a job after that like an Indian MBA does, in the Investment Banking domain.

Kindly advice :). Thank you so much!! Looking forward to hear back from you soon!! 😃 :)


You're clear about what you want to do in your career at 20-21, which is a good thing. Your post however also betrays impatience which I'd first advise you to temper; then take an objective approach to how you can get there.

I am a bit surprised to hear that the Big-4 with whom you had a killer interview wouldn't take you because "they" believe you wouldn't be able to afford a life in Mumbai! 15K or 23K is low in Mumbai, but it could've been a good test of your resource management skills ;-). Anyway, let's move on.

Personally, I feel going abroad for a Masters at your age is pointless, as you have very little to offer over & above a local Uk hire. So while it's (remotely) possible to get an IB Analyst role, it's plain unlikely with the current situation in the UK. Read posts 860-880 on this thread please.

In effect, you have 2 options:

1. Join KPMG, build basic skills in financial analysis and control and try making the shift to transaction advisory through strong performance that your bosses simply can't ignore. Try and get into projects that are related to due diligence and internal audit during & post M&A; integrations. Gain strong and on-ground experience & skill in at least one or two areas where your peers can't.

Meanwhile - try and pass at least 2 levels of the CFA in the next 3 years, and send a signal to your bosses that you are serious about a career in the transaction advisory group of KPMG. Once you have the skills and the experience and the competence (would take you 4 years at least), send a polite signal to your bosses. If they don't seem to listen, don't worry - your skills will be in demand and you can move to a different company. Thus build a bank of experience of at least 5-7 years, complete the CFA, then go for a Top MBA.

2. If you're desparate for an IB career now, then no better way that to prepare for and appear in the CAT and try swinging admission into a Top Indian B-School. It's a competitive path in, but once you're in an (example) IIM or JB, and amongst the Top 10% of the class, it's difficult for the IB firms to ignore you.

Both approaches require discipline and hard work.

Think carefully, then choose the path you consider more viable, and where you're likely to enjoy a greater chance of success.

All the best
baccardisprite

There are no age restrictions on appearing for the CFA, but this is best taken when youre young and still physically & mentally able to combine studying for this with your work. Its quite cost effective, with study material, registration and other expenses undertaken for

Hey,

I have 2 yrs of work ex in manufacturing industry. I want to knw if i apply for MS ( mech engg) next year.. will i have any benefits due to my work ex; as per my info freshers also get into MS courses easily.

does it mean dat my 2 yrs are wasted???

..browsed through a lot of advice given,very informative...and LOTs of gyaan:).


Okay,I'l try to structure my queries as much as possible:

1.I REALLY want to know about the various options available in Masters in Operations/General Management( :LSE's Masters in Management would be an utopian scenario!)
If you can provide a some info regarding the courses available and the job profile after completing the Masters.

2.What are the advantages/disadvantages of Masters after Grad/..over an MBA ?
Would really appreciate your viewpoint.
Other than these my MBA specific queries are:

3.Since my BE score is not that high ,what are the ways I can offset that in my application?
Are there any specific Certificate courses I can target to mildly improve my profile. :)

4.Which level of colleges I should be able to get in US/UK/Singapore..considering the poor acads?

5.If I join my family Business will it count as Work ex?(Its a SME).Will it harm my chances of an MBA if I cannot show them professional work ex?

6.Which Course can provide me a breakthrough into the alternative sources/Green Energy industry?(It's something that I would love to build my career in :))

hi,baccardisprite
U doing wonderful work to help puys........
I have few queries....
My profile is
10th : 78%
12th : 76%
B.com in accounting & finance : 75% in final year and aggregate 58%.
join Godrej & Boyce last month in logistic department as a graduate trainee......
I want to make my career in accounting & finance field....
i search some courses related accounting & finance...
I want help regarding this one course in uni. Of melbourne is diploma in accounting...
this is 2 year course and i may apply for nov. 2012 or feb .2013 batch...
So,till that my experience is also 1 year and i am thinking to appear for CFA level 1 course.....
So,can you tell me about the job prospectus after the course and current job situation in australia?
Is it worth to go there?

Thanks a lot.......

Hi Deep,

Let me try to answer your queries to the best possible extent.

1. & 2. Europe has a culture of Masters in Management(MIM) programs while the US does not. This is one of primary reasons you would not find many people talking about these MIM programs. Some of the them such as the LSE or the HEC(Paris) are really good but depends on what you are expecting out of it. They give you a good brand, but the learning is partial because the duration of these programs is shorter and so is the course fee. But these are extremely good on ROI if you are clear about your expectations from these programs.

3. When a university judges your aptitude, it is generally a combined weightage of your GMAT score and the university scores. The only thing that could offset a poor BE score is a high GMAT score. Rest of the things such as the Application Essays, LOR, Interview are independent of your GMAT+BE scores.

4. Any level. You acads (poor or rich) are behind you. Concentrate on making your GMAT score and application as rich as possible and any university would be willing to accept you.

5. Showing work-ex in a family business gets tricky at times coz even if u have actually worked hard with your family business, it keeps the admissions team still wondering if u actually did. It is safer to show a mix of organizational and family business experience. Nevertheless, if you must show experience only in family business, make sure you make it obvious through your essays that u have learned as well as contributed a lot.

All the best.
Prashant
essaysunday.com

If you want to get into M&A; / Transaction Advisory / Corporate Dev roles, your Big 4 should be an ideal place to try getting in there, what with the varied profiles of assignments undertaken! What you're doing is the knowledge and skill base for the more strategic roles you seek going forward - so take the time, learn your job, interact with clients, build a bag of skills and most importantly, become someone the firm can trust to put in front of clients.... That takes time and experience that no education can bring. Consider yourself fortunate to be where you are. Don't hold yourself to any deadline saying you need a Masters in 2-3- or 5 years. Wrong approach. Go for the Masters when you are absolutely sure that you have the "professional" skills to attract employers post any Masters degree (read my posts about the 75/25 rule - 75% professional skills, 25% education).

You are correct that an M&A; role requires competence in Finance. Once you have a good level of experience (takes 5-7 years in my book), then you can either opt to go for a Masters in Finance, or an MBA with a strong set of Finance & Strategy electives in a strong finance school (LBS, Wharton, Chicago, Columbia, NYU etc). As you have correctly surmised, you are likely to see your current employer leave the door open for you to re-enter, because you have the Pre-MBA skills transferable to the new role in M&A;/Transaction advisory, and the education to enhance and use those skills with clients. Use these years to learn, and build your bag of skills and acquire new ones. Learn a foreign language like Chinese, German or Spanish. In the next 3-4 years, try and clear the CFA to send your employer a signal that you're serious about making the shift in a few years, also to send a clear signal to adcomms that you're serious about a career in finance and M&A; advisory!

Do the things that build a platform for you, and give you the best chances to be successful in your quest.

All the best
Baccardisprite



thanks for the detailed advice. kinda cleared up some of the fog i was stumbling in regarding my future plans.

have one query, for someone looking to get into investment banking field, and early in career, would doing an MS in Finance help?

and if so, is UK a better option or the US? some people tell me, US university curriculum focuses more on research point of view of the topic while UK is more profession oriented course. while i get conflicting responses from others.

i know doing the MS in US is a 2 year course, which implies increased costs and time, but at same time, the job/visa situation in UK/ financial markets in europe aren't going through a good time right now. so there is some confusion.


Lastly, supposed someone does an MS Fin, is there any point in pursuing an MBA after 4-5 years of work exp? or will the MS in Finance provide the required push to get into the field, and the rest is all upto our performance?

Hi friends,

I'm planning to apply for the Masters in applied finance programme offered by SMU, singapore. Is there anyone else who is planning to apply for the same course.

Hi baccardisprite...if you remember, I am the one who was posting queries on your managed thread regarding China.

I am going there next year,after I finish my Post Graduation here from the Delhi School of Economics.
I will do my best to become fluent in the language as well as to understand the Chinese culture in full detail.

You told me that as a proficient speaker of Chinese and English, which many Indians are not, I have a great chance of being snapped up by companies of either countries looking to cross their respective frontiers.

But the thing is, they will take me as a translator or an interpreter, thats it. I really don't want to do a job like that, it doesn't sound that good to me.

What I was thinking was if I could, in the freshman interviews, portray myself as a Business Development guy or something for those Chinese MNCs. One reason comes to my mind: as an Indian, one would like to do business with the Chinese, no doubt about it. But would not it be comfortable for him to deal with an Indian in that Chinese company, because of the comfort level??
Or maybe, again my thinking, wouldn't I be a better employee for the Chinese firms seeking Indian business interests, because I can better understand what the Indian counterpart wants, I could negotiate better with the Indians, I could bring in the feel-good factor in dealings and probably search more clients for them and thus bring more on the table for the company than a Chinese fresh graduate with no knowledge of India.
Because even at the end of the day, even though the world is globalised, my first go-to point, even in Switzerland, will be you rather than a multi-billion dollar worth Swiss.

But I am inexperienced, do not have a technical qualification(Economics from DU),and will be a trouble for the firm because of Visa issues.

I am taking lots of assumptions here. Am i thinking right?? Is that the kind of job I should be looking forward to?? I have made up my mind that I am following my dream,going to China for one year at least to learn their culture,language,way of life.. just thinking of what-after...

Hi baccardisprite,

I'm a economics graduate and a CFA planning for masters in aplied finance. I have shortlisted Singapore management university. I would like to ask you whether it is difficult for foreigners to land a job in Singapore? How stringent are the immigration norms in singapore as compared to UK?

Pls help


Hi baccardisprite,

I'm a economics graduate and a CFA planning for masters in aplied finance. I have shortlisted Singapore management university. I would like to ask you whether it is difficult for foreigners to land a job in Singapore? How stringent are the immigration norms in singapore as compared to UK?

Pls help




Hi Ronnie,

Singapore and UK are two opposite poles when immigration norms are concerned. Singapore encourages immigration of intellect, one of their primary economic policies is to open huge libraries, invite foreign schools to set up in Singapore and encourage education. Getting a job in Singapore and getting to settle in Singapore - both are relatively easy.
UK isn't too friendly to foreigners in terms of jobs as well as immigration laws, so you would rather focus on Singapore.

All the Best
essaysunday

Hi Baccardisprite,
I have been following this thread since the last week..the amount of insight and help ur providing to the aspirants is commendable..
Here's my case. I would be completing my grad in engineering this august..I read ur 1st post, suggesting freshers to go for quantitative based courses..I am very keen to get into the communications managment/market research sector..but I really am not sure how to start..i am not really interested in finance..

I want to do my masters in communications managment or strategic marketing.bt as u have mentioned this wudnt be a great option for freshers in EU countries.how can i build my profile to achieve it?searched fr certification courses nd courses in business language,and came across CIM and IDM.I hav applied for internshps at sum major media houses thru some contacts.how much wud that help?and which r d best institutes offering dese courses in EU,US,Canada.

I want know about Master of accountancy/phd from a reputable university abroad. What is the scope of a amsters degree without an accounting certification. Its difficult to pursure international accounting prfessional degrees like ACCA/CPA without earning . so ideally I would love to do my masters there and then work there and ultimately get the certification.Also doing masters count as credit points for the course as well. Ohh I am b.com(H) graduate presently doing my masters in finance and accountancy here in India Calcutta University but its far from satisfactory. Not at all industry oriented or empirical research oriented.

Hi baccardisprite,

I am in my final year of civil engineering from University of Birmingham ,UK.
i want to do my masters in business/mangement with specialization in entrepreneurship directly after my graduation and probably get my industrial exposure in an construction firm for probabaly 2-3 years. i am planning to give gmat this october.

could u help me with the courses and colleges available for fresh graduates in india and abroad ( uk, usa, singapore preferred) like i have heard a few like mim at lbs and also iimC and iimB do take fresh graduates on the basis of gmat score for their full time mba.

many thanks