International educational options beyond the MBA

Hi baccardisprite

I wanted to ask something about Product Management.

1. How much is product management related to marketing? Is a product manager's role entirely based upon marketing or are there other elements like design etc involved? What is the technical differentiation between a "product manager" and a "brand manager"?

2. Do entry level positions in product management exist, for which a person in his twenties with let's say 3-4 yrs of work-ex (technical) can qualify? or is it that all the positions in product management require extensive work experience (technical + sales/marketing)?

3. If I want to move into product management after 3-4 yrs of work-ex as a programmer/designer, what kind of degrees/universities (preferably in USA) would be most appropriate (apart from MBA)?

My short-term career goal is to become a Product Manager for technology related products (in software, semiconductors, automobiles, consumer electronics, telecom, industrial systems/solutions etc).

Thanks in advance.
Najmuddin

PS: This thread is super awesome


Interesting!

1. Most commonly and in the world I know (OTC healthcare and FMCG) - product managers are the functional interface between the marketeers / salesmen (guys who face and sell to customers) and and the engineers (the guys who design the stuff to the customers requirement). Depending on the concept-design to market cycle of the product, product managers may be based with the marketeers or with the engineers or designers. Brand managers are heavily marketing focused, customer/consumer oriented and use the insights generated to dream up potential product concepts that they would like product managers to work on having the engineers design, the factories make and supply chain deliver to markets. Good analytical, customer-centric attitude and excellent communication are the 3 major skills.

In certain product / service industry combinations, product managers have a wider P&L; responsibility (meaning they also price the product they sell to customers). But the former description is more common I feel.

2. This is rare! Normally (again, my world) - 6-8 years in marketing or a combination of operational & customer facing roles.

3. No substitute for experience!! I assume you're in IT/Software, so I would always suggest a strong Technology Management / Operations / Strategy program. Go absolutely to the best school you can. Which means Universities with Top engineering schools alongside the schools of business. Starts with MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Michigan at the very top.

Good luck
Hi baccardisprite,
Firstly thanks for your effort and time :)
I am working with a Technology consulting (MNC) firm in India on ERP for the past 2 years. Also a certified six sigma and lean consultant . Academically have been in top 1% throughout and good at extra curricular activities.
I am looking at Process Design and Optimization in Services Industries. Also keep a keen interest in Energy and Utilities.
Post graduation I am looking to move into core consulting.
Could you advice me on courses which can help me shift my career from tech to consulting (generalist positions)
These are some of the programs I felt are appropriate....
The MEM Program at Thayer School of Engineering at Dartmouth
The Master of Science in Management Science and Engineering at Stanford
MIT Technology and Policy Program (TPP)
MIT Master of Science Degree
MBA from ISB

//BR
raghu


Stanford's MS&E; Program or MIT's TPP or Georgia Tech's Industrial Systems Engineering School (www.isye.gatech.edu). The last mentioned is the world's finest Industrial Engineering School!! Absolute tops. Go for any one them. Alums from these programs are in some of the world's finest companies including those in consulting.
Hi baccardisprite,

I need your advice on which course should i go for.

the problem i am facing in deciding is that though i know that i would love to get into some business few years down the line, i am really not sure which industry will it be and what course should i be doing right now.

i am in IT industry and dont want to continue in this as i am not really a techie guy and also i feel i am not made for this industry. its been 3 yrs now that i am in this industry.

i gave gmat last year, got 770.
i applied to 6 of top 20 universities (5 US + 1 Indian) (ft ranking) for their MBA program.
got rejected in all 6. i guess i was not having focus and had bad interviewing skills.

please guide me in choosing if MBA is really what will suite me
( i am unintersested in HR, marketing will not suite me, finance is no no, operation is not something i want to focus on) and where should i be really applying.

i intend to start some business in India in the long term. these days i am doing small small things like community service, toastmaster clubing, starting a website, all these apart from regular work at office.

thanks a ton in advance for your reply.. it will definitely be very valuable for me.

thanks and regards,
Siddharth


Mate, sorry to be harsh, but you got rejected by all schools exactly because of the lack of any clarity in your goals. Give it a year, sort out what you want to do and come back with a clear idea of future goals... Your current scatter-gun approach won't help here. Besides, you're 25, surely you can be a little more clear about what you want to do!!
Hi Bacardisprite,

Are there any eligibility criteria for applying for MS in Operations mgmt?

I am a B.Tech in Biotech with 35 months IT work-ex. I have a GRE score at hand. I am interested in quantitative operations management...the kind offered at the Univ of Cincinnati (Ohio), and the SUNY (Buffalo) colleges.


Georgia Tech (Industrial & Systems Engineering), Stanford (MS&E;), Michigan or even Purdue.... forget SUNY and target some top colleges.

Hi,

I am a CA, working in a Consulting firm with about 3 yrs experience in consulting. I am planning to shift base to Europe.
I would like to be in Financial services/IB/Hedge Fund/Consulting.
Which would be a better degree to pursue now - ICAEW or MBA ?

baccardisprite Says
Georgia Tech (Industrial & Systems Engineering), Stanford (MS&E;), Michigan or even Purdue.... forget SUNY and target some top colleges.


Thanks baccardisprite,

I just checked out GaTech and Purdue. Is the Michigan university you have stated the University of Michigan (Ross School of Business) or Central Michigan university? Both have ops mgmt/SCM programmes...

Also, my UG marks are marred by an arrear in Engineering mathematics once and one in Chemical engineering. Whereas I have a healthy 760 in GRE quants section to offset the seeming quant shortcoming. Will this work?

Sorry to be prospecting for my admit chances by bugging you, but these universities are all top-notch! Please advise how I may present my case to the admission committees of these univs better...
Thanks baccardisprite,

I just checked out GaTech and Purdue. Is the Michigan university you have stated the University of Michigan (Ross School of Business) or Central Michigan university? Both have ops mgmt/SCM programmes...

Also, my UG marks are marred by an arrear in Engineering mathematics once and one in Chemical engineering. Whereas I have a healthy 760 in GRE quants section to offset the seeming quant shortcoming. Will this work?

Sorry to be prospecting for my admit chances by bugging you, but these universities are all top-notch! Please advise how I may present my case to the admission committees of these univs better...


It's Univ of Michigan (Ann Arbor), where the Ross School is located as well.

Arrears - I suppose you mean repeats? If you have passed, then the passing transcript counts, so not much to worry, less so if you have good reasons to have those arrears. GRE quant score looks good.

Clearly articulated career goals and why that program at that particular school is good for your career at the time. That done, should be good.

All the best

hey baccardisprite,

need a little advice from you... actually i have an admit to Masters in Management & Strategy (1 year) at LSE (London School of Economics).. I am not sure whether to join this program as it mainly for fresh college graduates and I have 3.5 years of hardcore R&D; experience..
I applied to ISB and was dinged after interview... the reason cited in the feedback session was lack of breadth of experience... Considering that i have presently hardcore tech work profile getting into a top b school seems a difficult task..
I understand that even after doing this program, i need to do an MBA for further career progression. LSE is big brand name world wide which is enticing me to join but at the same time I am not sure about the job prospects bcoz of the new UK work visa regulations and the economic downturn.

Please advice.

PS : Apologies for such a long post

hey baccardisprite,

need a little advice from you... actually i have an admit to Masters in Management & Strategy (1 year) at LSE (London School of Economics).. I am not sure whether to join this program as it mainly for fresh college graduates and I have 3.5 years of hardcore R&D; experience..
I applied to ISB and was dinged after interview... the reason cited in the feedback session was lack of breadth of experience... Considering that i have presently hardcore tech work profile getting into a top b school seems a difficult task..
I understand that even after doing this program, i need to do an MBA for further career progression. LSE is big brand name world wide which is enticing me to join but at the same time I am not sure about the job prospects bcoz of the new UK work visa regulations and the economic downturn.

Please advice.

PS : Apologies for such a long post


R&D; in what industry? Would help to know that - to put your career in some perspective and give you valuable advice / point you in the right direction.

R&D; in semiconductor industry... mostly microchip design for high end mobile phones and network solutions... currently working in an MNC in India.

M7MBA Says
R&D; in semiconductor industry... mostly microchip design for high end mobile phones and network solutions... currently working in an MNC in India.


A very interesting profile! Mate - you're in a place and functional space where you have the most potential to make a difference to your industry and business. Take the long term view - you're in a probably well known company, and working on projects, products, solutions that are expected to make a commercial difference to consumers, the industry & the company 3-5-10 years from now. This is what most (myself included) would call "truly" high-technology and (potentially) "true" innovation. Why would you want to leave this space right now (unless I'm completely missing something with regard to your personal circumstances)?

Many hardcore R&D; profiles get into top schools year-after-year, but they tend to be people with several years (normally 6+) experience and at least some intellectually / technically / commercially significant achievement under their belt; aling with the career progression to go along with it.

I also wonder why you would want to leave the great space you are in now, go to LSE and expose yourself to a UK/EU job market where conditions are expected to be quite severe this year and the next.

That said - I can understand you want to gain broader experience in the next few years and move towards a more commercially influential career.

Recommendations:

1. Forget LSE for now, and concentrate on gaining 2 years of additional experience and career progression where you are.

2. Think about upskilling before you leave your job, make yourself attractive to your future employer. So learn a major foreign language over the next 12-18 months - in your case, I would recommend German!

3. Around 2010, think about a techno-managerial program, like ESD/TPP at MIT, the Industrial & Systems program in Georgia Tech, or the Management Science program in Stanford, or Engineering Masters Programs in TU Delft (Holland). Every one of these would offer you the chance to blend your former technical education with business related subjects and take courses that bridge both areas. Suddenly you'd be attractive in either technical roles, product management roles, and even to the big name consulting firms companies. Read my first posts in this thread and you'll see what I mean.

Bottomline:- Don't undersell yourself or your experience, and don't let what you've learned be devalued by simply leaving it behind for an education merely focussing on management & strategy (both vague words anyway). Instead, do something tangible where you are, and take your experience and skill with you, bridge it with targeted management education in a combined tech-management program, learn a language and offer your future employer something they will find extremely hard to refuse.

However, all the best whatever you do.

Hi baccardisprite,

want to thank you first for all your posts, really a nice thread

Actually i want some help from you, thing is that i am a mechanical engineer having 3 yrs of experience ,for the last 3 yrs i am working in BFSI domain in IT, so got little inclined towards finance
gave all the management exams this year in India, unfortunately couldnt got much success, able to convert IIT kanpur, KJ somaiya and MFC (MAster of finance and control) from Delhi university only.
i have decided to join MFC
Now looking at my profile will it be a wise decision for me, what else i can do, how is this masters course in finance from DU, what is its acceptability elsewhere (in INdia + Abroad),
i am not too keen in giving another shot next year for exams, can i get something good out of this course this year only.

thanks and regards

i m doin my final year M.Sc in software engineering(5 years integrated course). I think i can study more, ie an MBA(USA/ Aus), i hope some1 can guide me... wat are d xams i should prepare for???how much would it cost(both in USA & Aus)?
hope u keep me posted...

Thanks baccardisprite!
Really appreciate your thoughts.. u reinforced my choice of not joining LSE.

There is one glitch though.. i want to do an MBA to broaden my scope and open up new horizons for myself like consulting, IB, leadership rotational programs,etc... at this point of time I am not sure about techno-managerial kind of work profile

Plus, the career progression in terms of change in designation is a bit slow in this job profile as we mostly work as individual contributors...

Currently, I am trying to find out ways to improve my profile. Thanks again for pointing me into the right direction. Please do share with if you have any other thoughts/suggestions which could help me improve my chances at bschool next year.

Cheers!
RS

PS : out of curiosity, of all the languages why did u suggest german ?

Hi baccardisprite, want to thank you first for all your posts, really a nice thread.

Actually i want some help from you, thing is that i am a mechanical engineer having 3 yrs of experience ,for the last 3 yrs i am working in BFSI domain in IT, so got little inclined towards finance
gave all the management exams this year in India, unfortunately couldnt got much success, able to convert IIT kanpur, KJ somaiya and MFC (MAster of finance and control) from Delhi university only.
i have decided to join MFC. Now looking at my profile will it be a wise decision for me, what else i can do, how is this masters course in finance from DU, what is its acceptability elsewhere (in INdia + Abroad),
i am not too keen in giving another shot next year for exams, can i get something good out of this course this year only.
thanks and regards


I can't comment on the wisdom of decisions. What I always recommend is to conduct what we in business call "due diligence" - check the probable risks and consequences of those risks that could arise out of decisions. If they're acceptable - go ahead. If they aren't or can't be mitigated / eliminated, then don't go ahead.

Don't know about abroad, but the MFC @ DU is actually more recognized in India than people give it credit for. I would suggest the below due diligence steps before committing to it:

- Try and understand the profile of current students (both years), and check their experience profile. This should "indicate" the type of people you're studying with.

- Then check out the companies and (more importantly) the roles / positions they got into. Their jobs are likely to be 100% in the field of finance, but with what kind of companies and what kind of roles - management trainee or more assistant / associate manager or even manager level roles...Best would be to get the school to put you in touch with 2009 graduates (best would be if you found someone with your pre-program experience profile) - so you can get in touch with them and ask them about the program.

- If you find that most are fresh grads at entry and roles are at the junior most level, one might wonder whether the career services is geared only to those levels and perhaps they might find it difficult to manage your expectations in terms of companies on campus and the roles offered.

The MFC is quality wise quite good - it's a proper DU Master's Degree and has been successfully sending people into good financial careers for over 30 years now. I knew about it back in 96 when I graduated college.
i m doin my final year M.Sc in software engineering(5 years integrated course). I think i can study more, ie an MBA(USA/ Aus), i hope some1 can guide me... wat are d xams i should prepare for???how much would it cost(both in USA & Aus)?
hope u keep me posted...


Sorry to be harsh - that sort of a question reflects laziness. Suggest you either do some research on your own or do a search on this forum!
Thanks baccardisprite! Really appreciate your thoughts.. u reinforced my choice of not joining LSE.

There is one glitch though.. i want to do an MBA to broaden my scope and open up new horizons for myself like consulting, IB, leadership rotational programs,etc... at this point of time I am not sure about techno-managerial kind of work profile

Plus, the career progression in terms of change in designation is a bit slow in this job profile as we mostly work as individual contributors... Currently, I am trying to find out ways to improve my profile. Thanks again for pointing me into the right direction. Please do share with if you have any other thoughts/suggestions which could help me improve my chances at bschool next year. Cheers! RS

PS : out of curiosity, of all the languages why did u suggest german ?


I am fully aware of some of the short-term issues involved with R&D; - long lead projects, individual rather than team work, perceptibly slow career progression and a geeky image are only some.

What I suggested you think about is what you're actually acquiring, you're acquiring "knowledge" - you're either seeing, being exposed to or working on aspects that would determine the future products of your company or industry - things people would use. Think about not only business programs, but courses and education that helps you bridge your learning and experience of technology with business & commerce. Find a way to use your pre-MBA (or whatever) skills along with the education you seek.

Think also about LFM (Global Operations Management MBA | MIT). This an M.S & MBA program lasting 2 full years. Entrants normally get 75% tuition scholarship. Have a look and see whether this is for you, and try and connect back to what I've said above and in my previous post.

Improving your profile:

- Publish your work, or at least record your knowledge and thoughts somewhere. This is your intellectual property, find a way to retain it.
- Get involved with organizational and administrative activities in your company. Organize a technology day.
- Have you ever (with your bosses permission) presented what you and your friends do to your colleagues in other functions?
- Have you taken / do you regularly enroll yourself for personal improvement and development programs that your company?

In general do more and better things. Profile is about personal development and personality, NOT about what others think of you.

German - an example, nothing more.

Cheerz & Good luck
Interesting!

1. Most commonly and in the world I know (OTC healthcare and FMCG) - product managers are the functional interface between the marketeers / salesmen (guys who face and sell to customers) and and the engineers (the guys who design the stuff to the customers requirement). Depending on the concept-design to market cycle of the product, product managers may be based with the marketeers or with the engineers or designers. Brand managers are heavily marketing focused, customer/consumer oriented and use the insights generated to dream up potential product concepts that they would like product managers to work on having the engineers design, the factories make and supply chain deliver to markets. Good analytical, customer-centric attitude and excellent communication are the 3 major skills.

In certain product / service industry combinations, product managers have a wider P&L; responsibility (meaning they also price the product they sell to customers). But the former description is more common I feel.

2. This is rare! Normally (again, my world) - 6-8 years in marketing or a combination of operational & customer facing roles.

3. No substitute for experience!! I assume you're in IT/Software, so I would always suggest a strong Technology Management / Operations / Strategy program. Go absolutely to the best school you can. Which means Universities with Top engineering schools alongside the schools of business. Starts with MIT, Stanford, Berkeley, Michigan at the very top.

Good luck

Hi baccardisprite,
Thanks for the reply.
I am not in IT/Software. I am in semiconductors industry earlier was in IP design, now in validation.
I want to know more about how an education in operations can help me get closer to breaking into product management.
As far as my understanding goes (which may not be correct), operations or supply-chain management is primarily focused on finding the best possible way of distribution of goods/services/finished products to customers, from the point of origin to point of consumption along with the best possible management of resources. It is mostly concerned about finding the most optimal "path".
Can learning "optimization" help me get closer to my goal?
My long-term goal is to be in product portfolio planning/strategy. Can studying operations help me there or give me any advantage?
I have tried to read about product management on net. I've found that among the management functions, Marketing is closest to product management and is like an almost essential skill for a product manager.
Also, about the schools that you mentioned:
Stanford - MS&E; program - Agreed. It's a wonderful program and looks like the most apt one for me, considering my career goals.
MIT - ESD Master of Science, TPP, LFM - The ESD SM and TPP are not exactly technology management programs. Their course content and objectives are highly specialized (Systems engineering and technology policy respectively).
LFM - is a technology management program but again focusing heavily on manufacturing and operations management. Admission criteria even demands relevant experience in these fields.
UC Berkeley and UMich - they have a industrial engineering program. Again related to mostly operations management.
Although, the Ross School of Business at UMich has a new MS in Supply Chain management in partnership with the college of engineering. Do you suggest doing a supply chain mgmt program from a reputed business school like Ross and having the UMich engg advantage? Can this program help me in eventually moving into product management?
Most of the other top engineering schools in US have only industrial engineering which comes close to operations or tech mgmt. Can these programs help?
I was thinking of another approach if I combine my technical experience with a generalist management education (not focused on technology but on managerial economics/strategy and marketing), can my profile become a little more interesting for employers to consider me for entry level roles which have the potential to carry me into product management.
What do you think about this approach?
Also I've read that product management is that function of marketing management where minimal sales skills are needed and very strong analytical skills and knowledge of strategy and economics (market dynamics).
What's your take on this?

Hi baccardisprite,
Thanks for the reply.
I am not in IT/Software. I am in semiconductors industry earlier was in IP design, now in validation.
I want to know more about how an education in operations can help me get closer to breaking into product management.
As far as my understanding goes (which may not be correct), operations or supply-chain management is primarily focused on finding the best possible way of distribution of goods/services/finished products to customers, from the point of origin to point of consumption along with the best possible management of resources. It is mostly concerned about finding the most optimal "path".
Can learning "optimization" help me get closer to my goal?
My long-term goal is to be in product portfolio planning/strategy. Can studying operations help me there or give me any advantage?
I have tried to read about product management on net. I've found that among the management functions, Marketing is closest to product management and is like an almost essential skill for a product manager.
Also, about the schools that you mentioned:
Stanford - MS&E; program - Agreed. It's a wonderful program and looks like the most apt one for me, considering my career goals.
MIT - ESD Master of Science, TPP, LFM - The ESD SM and TPP are not exactly technology management programs. Their course content and objectives are highly specialized (Systems engineering and technology policy respectively).
LFM - is a technology management program but again focusing heavily on manufacturing and operations management. Admission criteria even demands relevant experience in these fields.
UC Berkeley and UMich - they have a industrial engineering program. Again related to mostly operations management.
Although, the Ross School of Business at UMich has a new MS in Supply Chain management in partnership with the college of engineering. Do you suggest doing a supply chain mgmt program from a reputed business school like Ross and having the UMich engg advantage? Can this program help me in eventually moving into product management?
Most of the other top engineering schools in US have only industrial engineering which comes close to operations or tech mgmt. Can these programs help?
I was thinking of another approach if I combine my technical experience with a generalist management education (not focused on technology but on managerial economics/strategy and marketing), can my profile become a little more interesting for employers to consider me for entry level roles which have the potential to carry me into product management.
What do you think about this approach?
Also I've read that product management is that function of marketing management where minimal sales skills are needed and very strong analytical skills and knowledge of strategy and economics (market dynamics).
What's your take on this?


Najmuddin,

Apologies for the wrong assumption.

Your first point about "optimal path" says it all! Except that concept has gone beyond just operations and supply chains. A product manager in my opinion is the one who helps to conceptualize, and contributes not only to optimal customer focussed / driven design, but also "delivery". Because if the product / service ain't smartly, efficiently, and effective deliverable (the upstream & downstream supply chain) to and / or isn't intuitively usable by a customer (design & marketing related) - it ain't innovative! We're all amazed at Apple's product design capability, however many (outside Apple) wouldn't see about the cost / complexity and the effectiveness of the product supply chain (right from the iPod's compenents, the manufacturing and distribution) that delivers products to users around the world.

To be able to ensure all the above elements work flawlessly is the job of the product managers, particularly in engineered and manufactured products like FMCG, OTC Healthcare, Consumer Electronics & Durables, and other Consumable items. The one's who do it best are those who normally bring to the table experience both from the marketing and operations side of the business. Marketing brings the ability to understand consumers and be able to facilitate design around the consumer, operations and supply chain work out optimal delivery, assess and mitigate risks associated with delivery options and find solutions to optimally and cost-effectively deliver to the consumer to help the business profit from the desired price point.

With these things in mind, think about what courses you might need to back your current experience up and move towards a product management position:

1. Marketing, consumer insight
2. Industry, Economics, and Competitive Analysis, leading to Strategy
3. Product design & engineering (the ability to not only innovate, but help create the environment for innovative product development)
4. Operations Management and supply chain design
5. Business modelling and optimization (design & delivery)
6. Finance, particularly in the area of pricing & costing, make v buy, end-to-end business case for products that need to be delivered to market
7. Sourcing & Procurement, connected largely to 4,5,6 (and where algorithmic optimization is slowly taking hold in various product focussed industries)

So go for a program that offers you as many of the above as possible in either one program or allows you to effectively combine a program. In my opinion - the Industrial Engineering, Management Science, Technology & Operations Management programs offer the widest possibility to gain the largest proportion of the above (points 3-7), while you can with your faculty permission (normally forthcoming with the right rationale) take the Marketing, Strategy related courses with the business schools.

After this looooooong explanation, to your specific questions:

- Yes, stanford's MS&E; program would be excellent education for all of the above, and you seem to agree there as well. There's of course a top-notch business school for you to access.

- For the MIT (ESD in particular) Programs, again look at the core courses, and think about what courses in MIT-Sloan you can combine with. Contact the LFM Admissions office and talk to them, ask them whether the profile requirements centre around experience in the manufacturing industry or the manufacturing / operations function. If it's the former, I think you could reasonably apply for the LFM through Sloan & ESD.

- The Berkeley & UMich programs are both excellent, but analyze the core courses to see whether they would meet the elements above and to what degree; and find out whether you can cross-register for the business school courses.

- I would not recommend a pure supply chain Masters course as it's not an effective pathway to what you want. The bottomline should be a combined technical & management program.

- You could do a generalist management course like an MBA, but look for a program that combines a strong core + a good set of electives that would take on the elements above, again - points to Stanford, MIT, Michigan, Berkeley. You will notice all of them are big name engineering schools alongside top business schools.

- Additionally, please contact the schools and ask them to provide you with contacts of people who have completed the program and have graduated into jobs or later reached product management jobs. Alumni are pretty loyal to their schools and will be more than happy to guide and mentor you, if you make the right and reasoned approach. Also if you can, speak / correspond with faculty and ask them for guidance. It may in the end be different to mine, but there're no better people to ask :-)

Sorry for the long message, hope this guides you better.
Good luck

hey bacardisprite,

thanks for ur insightful thoughts..
when I researched about Ms&E; program at Stanford, I found out that it does not require prior FT experience... also i realized that a lot of students at this program are freshers..

no doubt about it being the rite course but not sure about the right time for experienced guys like me, najmuddin,other puys to join.

just trying to put things in perspective.. so that there is no gap or distorted information

Cheers!
R