Investment Banking in India and Abroad

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I am posting the information from the website. I hope you can throw some light on it from the investment banking angle and the otherwise quality of the finance placements
Sure, I would love to help :cheerio: FMS is a fantastic school but all schools are prone to BS-ing their placements (including mine, lol)


33% of the batch is placed in Finance.
FMS remained a preferred destination for financial firms with a number of offers made across private equity, investment banking, markets, treasury, asset management, corporate finance, and wholesale and retail banking.
This is the general opener


Niche profiles offered by private equity firm Avigo Capital and investment banking major Avendus Capital
The PE firm does SME investments. There's nothing spectacular about it. Real PE shops in India are the major ones - Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, IL&FS; Investment Managers, etc. Also Avendus is what I would call an an Indian Bulge Bracket and does a fair number of deals. But forget about seeing BB sized salaries or facilities here.

emerged as some of the most sought after roles on campus. Goldman Sachs and Deutsche Bank returned to campus in style, making 6 and 5 offers respectively. Investment banking giants JP Morgan Chase and Nomura also recruited from FMS.
If these were domestic placements, these guys are sitting in the back office right now. Same for GS and DB since they do not have sizeable IB ops in India yet.
rockybelboa Says
also recruited in good numbers. Corporate finance roles were offered by major companies such as Essar, Hindustan Unilever, Nestle, Kraft-Cadbury, L&T; etc.
Corp fin roles are basically P&L; responsibilities
5 students rejected higher paying jobs to accept offers from the most reputed financial institution in the country- the Reserve Bank of India.
While quite noble, these students will jump ship in a couple of years to go work for corporate because government salaries are awful.

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ratter Says
how are debt funds raised ( are these loans by banks) and you had a direct client facing role????


Debt (senior secured debt) is raised in the form of loans and bonds. The loans may be of three types - Short-term (working capital or bridge facilities, usually), term loans (3 years+) and lines of credit. Alternatively, you may have Non-fund based facilities also present. Depending on the clients requirement and associated pricing appetite, we would structure the client's requirements in sync with his drawdowns (when he would draw the money) to give the client the best deal. Part of this includes building in 'covenants' into the structure of the project depending on what the client is willing to offer and what the market demands. This super simplistic view is a part of what we call 'structuring'.

The next phase would be execution: In this phase, we prepare marketing materials - pitch books, slides, research collations, etc to be able to take the company to market. In India, the major lenders for debt are banks and FIs. However, since FIs have a higher all-in cost of funds, the smart banker usually gives them a miss. With banks, the story is unique to India. Indian banks are PSUs - and with all PSUs, you see inefficiency (except SBI - those guys are awesome!), inefficiency, endless tea-drinking, laziness and more inefficiency. I am not saying that everyone there is inefficient. I am just saying that the number of hard-working people I have met there, I could count on my fingers. So we need to know where the file is within the approval process within the banks - and who is looking at what papers and who is on vacation and who requires to be pushed into making a decision and where. The intricacies involved in 'pushing' files thru a PSU would be enough to make anyones head spin.

The third phase: documentation - We supervise the drawing up of legal documents (by independent legal counsel for the client) and proof read these documents to make sure that the lawyers haven't messed up the terms. One thing that lawyers have no clue about are the financials, and it is very common to see them mess up big time when it comes to putting down the covenants.

The fourth phase: First disbursement (this is sometimes a freebie if we really like the client) - we help the client understand how to get compliant with the rules required to draw their first tranche of money from the bank.

This is an oversimplification of the actual process which can consist of anywhere from 6 to ten phases depending on how the equity must come in to environmental compliances, etc. However, hopefully, this answers your question about debt fund raises.

To answer your second question, once again, all my assignments have been directly client and investor facing. In the team, each of us had relationships with individual investors and it would be impossible to syndicate our product to the investor if we had no interactions with the client. So yes - all my roles have been client facing.
Debt (senior secured debt) is raised in the form of loans and bonds. The loans may be of three types - Short-term (working capital or bridge facilities, usually), term loans (3 years+) and lines of credit. Alternatively, you may have Non-fund based facilities also present. Depending on the clients requirement and associated pricing appetite, we would structure the client's requirements in sync with his drawdowns (when he would draw the money) to give the client the best deal. Part of this includes building in 'covenants' into the structure of the project depending on what the client is willing to offer and what the market demands. This super simplistic view is a part of what we call 'structuring'.

The next phase would be execution: In this phase, we prepare marketing materials - pitch books, slides, research collations, etc to be able to take the company to market. In India, the major lenders for debt are banks and FIs. However, since FIs have a higher all-in cost of funds, the smart banker usually gives them a miss. With banks, the story is unique to India. Indian banks are PSUs - and with all PSUs, you see inefficiency (except SBI - those guys are awesome!), inefficiency, endless tea-drinking, laziness and more inefficiency. I am not saying that everyone there is inefficient. I am just saying that the number of hard-working people I have met there, I could count on my fingers. So we need to know where the file is within the approval process within the banks - and who is looking at what papers and who is on vacation and who requires to be pushed into making a decision and where. The intricacies involved in 'pushing' files thru a PSU would be enough to make anyones head spin.

The third phase: documentation - We supervise the drawing up of legal documents (by independent legal counsel for the client) and proof read these documents to make sure that the lawyers haven't messed up the terms. One thing that lawyers have no clue about are the financials, and it is very common to see them mess up big time when it comes to putting down the covenants.

The fourth phase: First disbursement (this is sometimes a freebie if we really like the client) - we help the client understand how to get compliant with the rules required to draw their first tranche of money from the bank.

This is an oversimplification of the actual process which can consist of anywhere from 6 to ten phases depending on how the equity must come in to environmental compliances, etc. However, hopefully, this answers your question about debt fund raises.

To answer your second question, once again, all my assignments have been directly client and investor facing. In the team, each of us had relationships with individual investors and it would be impossible to syndicate our product to the investor if we had no interactions with the client. So yes - all my roles have been client facing.


thanks for a wonderful reply... this cleared a lot of air .......... ghosh a lot of hard work is required here..... one last question ..... since the money involved is big... all the secured loans I see in the balance sheet of any company comes through these investment bankers????? and for few companies the secured loan as very nominal amount say 3 crores or say 10 crores... this amount is taken care by small investment banks????

And again thanks a lot
thanks for a wonderful reply... this cleared a lot of air .......... ghosh a lot of hard work is required here..... one last question ..... since the money involved is big... all the secured loans I see in the balance sheet of any company comes through these investment bankers????? and for few companies the secured loan as very nominal amount say 3 crores or say 10 crores... this amount is taken care by small investment banks????

And again thanks a lot


Not all. Some companies are large enough to raise loans by themselves. The TATAs or Reliance for example, use their own in-house debt team to raise debt (unless the debt is too complex to be structured thru an in-house team).

Now the rule of thumb is that investment banks have a certain lower limit in terms of fees that they would not want to touch (unless the client has a very special relationship with them). Debt bankers make 1% (excl taxes) of the amount raised. Equity bankers make between 2.5% - 6% of the amount raised (equity deals are fewer and much more rigorous).

Smaller deals of 3 - 10cr is usually handled by banks with much smaller teams. These investment banks 'differentiate' themselves by calling themselves 'SME bankers / teams' (I spent a while in an SME team - the work is harder and clients are more annoying in terms of amount of face-time they demand of the banker. SME teams are smaller for debt, so pay is at industry-levels, but I couldn't wait to get out coz the clients are not high quality at all.
Not all. Some companies are large enough to raise loans by themselves. The TATAs or Reliance for example, use their own in-house debt team to raise debt (unless the debt is too complex to be structured thru an in-house team).

Now the rule of thumb is that investment banks have a certain lower limit in terms of fees that they would not want to touch (unless the client has a very special relationship with them). Debt bankers make 1% (excl taxes) of the amount raised. Equity bankers make between 2.5% - 6% of the amount raised (equity deals are fewer and much more rigorous).

Smaller deals of 3 - 10cr is usually handled by banks with much smaller teams. These investment banks 'differentiate' themselves by calling themselves 'SME bankers / teams' (I spent a while in an SME team - the work is harder and clients are more annoying in terms of amount of face-time they demand of the banker. SME teams are smaller for debt, so pay is at industry-levels, but I couldn't wait to get out coz the clients are not high quality at all.


thanks again... the more I start knowing , more the number of questions emerge

1.Since Investment Bankers become champ at valuating things , so i guess this makes them the right pick for Private Equity firms.

2. Considerably a low amount of funds are raised in India so that is the reason why Investment banking is primarily a job of US???

3. Recession sees a very few IPOs and debts being raised ( almost nil) and that is the reason why the life becomes tough for investment banks???

Thanks for your patience and your passion for investment banking is quite visible
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1.Since Investment Bankers become champ at valuating things , so i guess this makes them the right pick for Private Equity firms.

Different groups have different levels of attractiveness for PE firms. The three ripest groups in IB for stepping to PE are:
Financial Sponsors Group (Coverage), Leveraged Finance Group (Product), M&A; (Coverage - Advisory)


2. Considerably a low amount of funds are raised in India so that is the reason why Investment banking is primarily a job of US???

The markets in India are not yet mature and capital costs are much lower - which is why the funds raises are relatively lower than the US. However, the reason I mentioned IB being primarily a US job is that the maximum amount of variety and product innovation happens in the US. However, I think that it is only a matter of years before IB in India takes off.


3. Recession sees a very few IPOs and debts being raised ( almost nil) and that is the reason why the life becomes tough for investment banks???

Au contraire, at work in my firm, I saw a lot more debt being raised during recession. This is because the equity markets had no capacity to raise money. However, you're right - work got much harder and for the equity guys, the private placement deals also dried up - so they had almost nothing to do all day. I know a bunch of my buddies became awesome at solitaire, coffee drinking and newspaper reading. But I know a ton of guys got canned.


Thanks for your patience and your passion for investment banking is quite visible

You're very welcome. I'm really interested in bringing a sense of understanding to the PG community about the work that we do.

@ Jamiroquai:

I have a question. How valuable is MS in finance degree from foreign universities? Do I-banks really consider students who have done MS in fin & cleared say first 2 levels of CFA?
i have almost 1.5 yrs work ex in IT sector. i have heard that UK with its visa restrictions will be difficult for getting jobs in IBs.

What is the scene in US? I am more keen on pursuing 1 yr course. Do IBs like Goldman, JP Morgan recruit people with MS in finance degrees(from foreign universities) in India?
I am asking this coz i really don't have friends who can answer my questions.

Trading seems to be really exciting. Would love to get into it. Will MS (fin) be the right degree if i want to get into IB?

I do like reading all your articles. They are so informative & valuable. Keep up the good work. 😃

@ Jamiroquai:
I have a question. How valuable is MS in finance degree from foreign universities? Do I-banks really consider students who have done MS in fin & cleared say first 2 levels of CFA?
S&T; people do, IB people don't


i have almost 1.5 yrs work ex in IT sector. i have heard that UK with its visa restrictions will be difficult for getting jobs in IBs.

Right now, you're looking at impossible; especially if you're from India


What is the scene in US? I am more keen on pursuing 1 yr course. Do IBs like Goldman, JP Morgan recruit people with MS in finance degrees(from foreign universities) in India?

Again, S&T;, yes. IB, no. MS (fin) is a technical degree that is not very useful for a job that requires an MBA skillset


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Trading seems to be really exciting. Would love to get into it. Will MS (fin) be the right degree if i want to get into IB?

Yep. S&T; firms hire a lot more from MBA programs. You HAVE to be awesome in quant, stats and probability.

Thanks for the excellent analysis of the placement report. Could you also throw some light on the quality of placements as far as finance domain is concerned. The average domestic salary quoted on the website is 15.4 LPA

thanks in advance
Rocky

Sure, I would love to help :cheerio: FMS is a fantastic school but all schools are prone to BS-ing their placements (including mine, lol)

This is the general opener

The PE firm does SME investments. There's nothing spectacular about it. Real PE shops in India are the major ones - Blackstone, KKR, Carlyle, IL&FS; Investment Managers, etc. Also Avendus is what I would call an an Indian Bulge Bracket and does a fair number of deals. But forget about seeing BB sized salaries or facilities here. If these were domestic placements, these guys are sitting in the back office right now. Same for GS and DB since they do not have sizeable IB ops in India yet.SBI Caps is to be taken seriously. They offer great experience and are one of the biggest Indian BBs. This is pretty straight-forwardIf they didn't place them abroad, then chances of these guys sitting in investment banks is quite lowAll these firms probably hired people as credit analysts. This is a role that most analysts look to escape after a couple of years because the hours are bad and your boss keeps eating your brains about deadlines. This would be tolerale if they paid you well - but the pay really really sucks. If you have a really positive attitude, you could do this for about 5 years before you lose it. However, once you figure it out - this is a great job for those who want to maximize job security and salary.Corp fin roles are basically P&L; responsibilities While quite noble, these students will jump ship in a couple of years to go work for corporate because government salaries are awful.

hi

i want to learn some basic of finance before i get into B school.
I dont want a book complete with definitions sounding like a dictionary.

are there any such good books ?
i have heard about intelligent investor ..
The book should strengthen my interest in finance and also give a brief idea of all the intricate concepts.

hi

i want to learn some basic of finance before i get into B school.
I dont want a book complete with definitions sounding like a dictionary.

are there any such good books ?
i have heard about intelligent investor ..
The book should strengthen my interest in finance and also give a brief idea of all the intricate concepts.


try a couple of nse certificates, that will help

Hi Jamiroquai, thanks for your initiative.

I am in a dilemma here -

I am a fresh CA and have interned at a KPO in Equity Research. It converted to a PPO and I've been there for less than 6 months now.

I plan to go for an MBA from a top tier B-School in India, and then aim to get into maybe consulting (which is not something I can achieve with CA alone, and I want to leave research).

So my question is - should I try for a front office profile? The best I've been offered is Equity Sales at one of the top broking houses. The MNC banks don't even look at CAs.

Should I take this up? It would mean a lot less time for CAT prep, but would it make a lot of difference at placement time?

Thank you...

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I plan to go for an MBA from a top tier B-School in India, and then aim to get into maybe consulting (which is not something I can achieve with CA alone, and I want to leave research).
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Should I take this up? It would mean a lot less time for CAT prep, but would it make a lot of difference at placement time?

Thank you...


Do the MBA. Aim for top-tier, it makes all the difference. As echoes mentioned, work experience prior to your MBA really doesn't matter much when it comes to the IIMs - but will give you a definite competitive advantage when it comes to MBA placements

Hello puys,

This may sound irrelevant ...but can someone pls throw some light on PE firms(as in how they function) or post some sources where i can get some concise info abt them.


Also who all are the potential customers for the front end office of i-banks??

hello puys if all turns out good i would soon be entering into a tier1 B school ..my question is should i enroll for Cfa Level1..i want competitive advantage at the time of summers..which would add value to my profile for getting into an i bank (SBI caps wud also do for me)..also..not only cfa but any other courses or certification..
I had this problem in IIM interviews where inspite of interest in fin i cudnt make it visible to them coz of no certificates backing me up

PS: profile avg...btech->14 months IT exp

thanks..!!

hello puys if all turns out good i would soon be entering into a tier1 B school ..my question is should i enroll for Cfa Level1..i want competitive advantage at the time of summers..which would add value to my profile for getting into an i bank (SBI caps wud also do for me)..also..not only cfa but any other courses or certification..
I had this problem in IIM interviews where inspite of interest in fin i cudnt make it visible to them coz of no certificates backing me up

PS: profile avg...btech->14 months IT exp

thanks..!!


Your CFA will help you (realistically) if you get L1 done before school begins. It will give you a strong understanding of Accounting, Finance and Microecon. Doing an L1 during your first year at a good b-school will be very difficult because sem 1 & 2 tend to be very difficult in good business schools.

for a competitive advantage, follow the newspaper articles very carefully - try understanding what the deals actually are. try learning valuation before your internship interviews come up.

Hi Jamiroquai...... thanks for the posts.

I wanted to know if your or any other BB hires non-CA undergrads for a front end analyst position.. I believe it is common in the US but I haven't come across such cases in India. I am from an IIT and have been hired into a BB KPO for an IBD profile. This seems to be the only way for me to break into BB IBD at this level, without resorting to an MBA at IIMS.

My follow up is , What would be the possibility to move to a front end IBD group in India, say possibly after working a year or two. Do you or anyone you know hire analysts from such KPO's. From what I could gather, the work profile at an analyst level is quite similar - modelling and doing other stuff. Am I off base on this?

I strongly want to do an MBA in the US, hence not applying for IIM's. How would MBA adcoms value working in a BB kpo as opposed to working at a front end boutique ?

And Finally, I've read on WSO and some other forums that PE's generally hire analysts from BB's and from US B schools if you have prior work-ex as an analyst. Could you through some light on PE hiring practises in India for IBD analysts. I've heard some cases where people from McKinsey and BCG went to work at Blackstone and KKR India offices, as opposed to IBD 'ers in the US

Apologize for the hiatus. I've been tackling a ton of work over the last couple of days with the term ending and finals week, etc.

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I wanted to know if your or any other BB hires non-CA undergrads for a front end analyst position.. I believe it is common in the US but I haven't come across such cases in India. I am from an IIT and have been hired into a BB KPO for an IBD profile. This seems to be the only way for me to break into BB IBD at this level, without resorting to an MBA at IIMS.

Well, most IB firms in India don't really have an "analyst" position. They hire you in as an Associate directly (after your MBA/CA) and then give you the job that an analyst may work on. (Its a really shitty thing, I know!). This is in the front office (because the relationship managers need someone in the office to help them with their work)

Congrats on the BB KPO - I don't think there is an opportunity for you to move from KPO Analyst to Front-Office Associate in the same firm. :-(
Whereas, in the US, an Analyst in the front-office has a (slim) opportunity to move to Associate.


My follow up is , What would be the possibility to move to a front end IBD group in India, say possibly after working a year or two. Do you or anyone you know hire analysts from such KPO's. From what I could gather, the work profile at an analyst level is quite similar - modelling and doing other stuff. Am I off base on this?

In large middle-market firms, this is very possible and I have seen a fair amount of this. The people coming from the KPOs usually do very well with a BB on their resume.


I strongly want to do an MBA in the US, hence not applying for IIM's. How would MBA adcoms value working in a BB kpo as opposed to working at a front end boutique ?

Depends on the quality of work you've done. A front-office job at a middle-market firm would provide you with a much larger variety of work. However, a couple of my IIT classmates at Cornell have come from KPOs.


And finally, I've read on WSO and some other forums that PE's generally hire analysts from BB's and from US B schools if you have prior work-ex as an analyst. Could you through some light on PE hiring practises in India for IBD analysts. I've heard some cases where people from McKinsey and BCG went to work at Blackstone and KKR India offices, as opposed to IBD 'ers in the US

I am unable to comment on PE hiring practice for analysts in India. Only the large PE firms PROBABLY hire analysts. Some of the well-known PE firms I have dealt with don't hire analysts (just associates who they treat as analysts). I too have heard of McKinsey and BCG analysts going to PE firms as analysts. But once again, it is super tough to get in. It's not something you should count on as a sure thing - if you're making a career decision.

hey guys i am new to this site ....nyways in jus a lil fix, i wanted to know about some short term or certificate courses in investment banking...i am already pursuing ca cann nyone help???i also wanted to know is school of investmentbanking in mumbai good?