A very basic question :
Does an MBA help only to get an interview with a BB firm or is there(in reality) some correlation between the skill set required at a BB and the skill set acquired at a top notch B school. If there is, can you please elucidate ?
Also, how has the financial meltdown impacted the I banking industry regards the hefty bonuses which are supposedly the soul motivation behind an IB job ? ( I think Obama placed some restrictions on trading desks of IBs)
A quick reply will be really appreciated.
@jamiroquai, Hi, I am a student of IMT-Ghaziabad. As you said BB firms generally don't recruit from IMT. So how to go about off campus placement?
@Jamiroquai
I have a query here. Suppose, somebody does an MBA from a tier-II institute like say NMIMS(or any other ranked 14 to 20) and then opts for a finance profile. After working for 2 to 3 years he then again decides to do another MBA and this time he makes it into the top IIMs/XLRI/JB. If he then does his second MBA from one of these institutes would BB IB firms decide to select him ? Or is going for a second MBA altogether an absurd option ?
I have a query here. Suppose, somebody does an MBA from a tier-II institute like say NMIMS(or any other ranked 14 to 20) and then opts for a finance profile. After working for 2 to 3 years he then again decides to do another MBA and this time he makes it into the top IIMs/XLRI/JB. If he then does his second MBA from one of these institutes would BB IB firms decide to select him ? Or is going for a second MBA altogether an absurd option ?
Hi Abhi,
In Year 2 & 3: Support would be restricted to 1 IBD group with due dilligence support, pitch support etc. (S)he would do SOTP, DCF valuations etc etc. By the end of the 2nd year the analyst would move to merger modeling, put acquisition ideas and have ownership of pitch reports. At the end of 3rd year, you're either in the front office or you're out.
What did you mean by "or you're out"? Did you mean that those who fail to get entry into front offices are fired by the IB?
@Jamiroquai
I have yet another query for you. If one goes for a second MBA after working for a while after his first MBA, it would mean that he would be 3-4 years older(at least) than someone who joins the IB after doing a single MBA only. Would the IB consider such aged candidates? I am asking this because i have to take some solid decision this year. As i shall not be able to go to the IIMs this year and as i am getting older and hence there's the urgency to get married, i have thought upon the plan that i shall do a second MBA from a top institute after working for a few years in finance after completing my first MBA. Would it be a nice plan ?
Also, i have another query. I want to know how much would someone's past academics matter if he is able to make it to one of the top institutes. Would an IB consider such candidates?
@Jamiroquai
I have a query here. Suppose, somebody does an MBA from a tier-II institute like say NMIMS(or any other ranked 14 to 20) and then opts for a finance profile. After working for 2 to 3 years he then again decides to do another MBA and this time he makes it into the top IIMs/XLRI/JB. If he then does his second MBA from one of these institutes would BB IB firms decide to select him ? Or is going for a second MBA altogether an absurd option ?
What did you mean by "or you're out"? Did you mean that those who fail to get entry into front offices are fired by the IB?
@Jamiroquai
I have yet another query for you. If one goes for a second MBA after working for a while after his first MBA, it would mean that he would be 3-4 years older(at least) than someone who joins the IB after doing a single MBA only. Would the IB consider such aged candidates? I am asking this because i have to take some solid decision this year. As i shall not be able to go to the IIMs this year and as i am getting older and hence there's the urgency to get married, i have thought upon the plan that i shall do a second MBA from a top institute after working for a few years in finance after completing my first MBA. Would it be a nice plan ?
Also, i have another query. I want to know how much would someone's past academics matter if he is able to make it to one of the top institutes. Would an IB consider such candidates?
Hi,
I am probably not an expert in this domain, but am going to be interning in Investment Banking division for a foreign bank from next month, hence I do know some of the ground realities - here is my take on your question:
Second MBA is a rare option definitely, but from what I've seen/heard, people only do it from an Ivy League B-school like MIT Sloan, Harvard, Wharton etc. Doing an MBA from 2 different Indian B-schools probably would not help you too much I guess. You will have great difficulties trying to convince job interviewers why exactly you had to do an MBA again and even while you're interviewing for the 2nd B-school, you will find it difficult to get in.
Also, the big IBD firms prefer freshers or people with very little work experience when they hire. If you have substantial work experience, it has to be "relevant" to IBD for you to have a chance to be even get shortlisted for their interviews.
I believe "you're out" refers to the general trend of big IBD and Consulting companies to follow a definite career path - you cannot stay in the same position for more than 2-3 years. If you're good enough to be promoted (which most of their hires obviously are), you will be - otherwise you will be asked to resign.
Finally, past academics plays a HUGE role in getting shortlists for the Slot-0 International IBD and Consults. If you do not have very good acads, it has to be offset by some other excellent national/international level achievement.
A very basic question :
Does an MBA help only to get an interview with a BB firm or is there(in reality) some correlation between the skill set required at a BB and the skill set acquired at a top notch B school. If there is, can you please elucidate ?
Also, how has the financial meltdown impacted the I banking industry regards the hefty bonuses which are supposedly the soul motivation behind an IB job ? ( I think Obama placed some restrictions on trading desks of IBs)
A quick reply will be really appreciated.
Well, BB firms look for highly intelligent people with very good acads, extremely good analytical ability, very good with numbers and ability to handle high pressure, among other things. A top notch B-school grad generally will have all those skills, however not everyone in those B-schools gets a chance to interview with the BB firms, so even if you get into a Top-3 B-school in India, you are not guaranteed to get into a BB firm.
The recession had really hit the I-Banking industry pretty hard, but it is very much in recovery mode. Although bonuses are looked at more closely by people outside the Banking industry now, most BB firms still do give out hefty bonuses and if 1 bank gives a good bonus, others cannot afford to give too less, else the star I-Bankers will just leave this bank to go somewhere else where it pays more.
niks2206 Says@jamiroquai, Hi, I am a student of IMT-Ghaziabad. As you said BB firms generally don't recruit from IMT. So how to go about off campus placement?
The BB firms recruit for their front-office jobs only from the Top 3-4 B-schools in India, as far as I know. However, if you are targetting middle/back end job there, you can look up their individual websites and try applying online.
Well, BB firms look for highly intelligent people with very good acads, extremely good analytical ability, very good with numbers and ability to handle high pressure, among other things. A top notch B-school grad generally will have all those skills, however not everyone in those B-schools gets a chance to interview with the BB firms, so even if you get into a Top-3 B-school in India, you are not guaranteed to get into a BB firm.
Thanks. But the important and confusing question which I still cant get an answer to is that what skills does an MBA develop which enables an individual to apply and work at I banks ? Is it just the campus placement ? As a novice and from my previous college where Big bulges usually come I have this feeling that they just want intelligent people and they find them in good colleges.
Can u please map the skillset of an ibanker to an mba ?
In simple terms, can u please tell me what to say in an iim interview for why mba question when I want to get into I banking ?
P.S. : are you the echoes from pompeii ?
Thanks. But the important and confusing question which I still cant get an answer to is that what skills does an MBA develop which enables an individual to apply and work at I banks ? Is it just the campus placement ? As a novice and from my previous college where Big bulges usually come I have this feeling that they just want intelligent people and they find them in good colleges.
Can u please map the skillset of an ibanker to an mba ?
In simple terms, can u please tell me what to say in an iim interview for why mba question when I want to get into I banking ?
P.S. : are you the echoes from pompeii ?
Well, I kinda told you the exact qualities which an I-bank looks for when recruiting for a front office job from the Top B-schools in India - that is the skill-set they advertise. A finance background is preferred, but it is in no way a necessity.
Yes, if you want to put it bluntly, all they are looking for is "they just want intelligent people and they find them in good colleges", as you said. They are picking up students with superlative performance in the toughest MBA entrance exam around given by 200,000+ people, and obviously most of the people they shortlist have prior IIT background or have extremely good academic performance.
To answer your exact question, an individual does not suddenly develop much extra "skillset" as such, which makes him suddenly an I-banker overnight. You need an MBA with Finance degree and doing it from either of IIM-C/A/B obviously places you in a better position as they are considered the best in India. The alumni network of these instis obviously helps getting in these global I-banks for recruitment.
For an IIM interview, if you want to say that joining an I-bank is your basic reason to do an MBA, you have to convince the interviewers that it is your real goal. Find out as much as you can about your dream IBD job and try to correlate some of the things you have done earlier and why suddenly you want to be an I-banker. If you can establish your reason for being an I-banker, an MBA in Finance is obviously easier to explain as it will provide you opportunities to get recruited as one.
P.S. Yup, it is originally from "Meddle", but also featured in Pompeii.
SPjain dubai singapore has a specialised program in IB how good it is considering ROI (if one returns to india post mba) to break into IB
P.S. it's 1 year course with fee 16-17 lac 6month dubai + 6month singapore
A lot of B-schools name i-banks like nomura and JP Morgan Chase in their placement report. When considering schools like IIM K,I,L and FMS, IIT D and B, how do I find out what profiles are on offer? They name a whole load of profiles and if they mention Investment Banking it might just be in relation to SBI Capitals and not in respect of these.
Also, if these profiles (which are on offer and hopefully you would name them) are not actual I banking positions but not total back office crap either, then would there be a possibility to get into an actual i-banking position?
And please give some details about some boutique i banks in India.
Thanks
Unfortunately, you can't really tell what profiles are on offer until you talk to people who know those who got the offers (classmates, typically). Placement offices purposely confuse and diffuse their placement reports to make everything look attractive.
Ref: my previous posts on boutiques
Hi Abhi,
I don't know if I'm in a position to respond to this appropriately but here's my two cents:
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@jamiroquai... please highlight any errors/ augment the above information
I think that was quite right - however, in India, most times, they don't allow you to move from dedicated middle office to front office. Front office "pedigree" is one thing most banks are ridiculously picky about.
niks2206 Says@jamiroquai, Hi, I am a student of IMT-Ghaziabad. As you said BB firms generally don't recruit from IMT. So how to go about off campus placement?
If you look thru my earlier posts - you will see references to trying and utilizing the connections you have at middle-level banks to get your foot in the door for an IB job. Even if they give you the shittiest work, you'll always find some kind soul to help you with learning and understanding the business.
A very basic question :
Does an MBA help only to get an interview with a BB firm or is there(in reality) some correlation between the skill set required at a BB and the skill set acquired at a top notch B school. If there is, can you please elucidate ?
Also, how has the financial meltdown impacted the I banking industry regards the hefty bonuses which are supposedly the soul motivation behind an IB job ? ( I think Obama placed some restrictions on trading desks of IBs)
A quick reply will be really appreciated.
A top-notch b-school has better professors, more competitive class mates and more successful alums. Those are critical factors in helping push you thru the door once you snag interviews. Snagging the interview means you must come from a solid school.
Banker bonus is tied to firm profitability. Bonuses are coming back in NY (have been great in Mumbai, I hear) and are shit in London (which is why the bankers there are leaving en masse to NY and HK).
I don't understand what relation prop trading has to IB??
@Jamiroquai
I have a query here. Suppose, somebody does an MBA from a tier-II institute like say NMIMS(or any other ranked 14 to 20) and then opts for a finance profile. After working for 2 to 3 years he then again decides to do another MBA and this time he makes it into the top IIMs/XLRI/JB. If he then does his second MBA from one of these institutes would BB IB firms decide to select him ? Or is going for a second MBA altogether an absurd option ?
Doing a 2 year program again at the IIMs/XLRI/JB is a waste of your time and is not looked upon kindly. However, a lot of people get their second MBA in the US - which is a phenomenal resume booster. I've seen a lot of the IIM-A guys who majored in mktg have come to the US to get their MBAs from schools here. What one must understand from this is that Investment Banking is primarily a US business.
...
Also, i have another query. I want to know how much would someone's past academics matter if he is able to make it to one of the top institutes. Would an IB consider such candidates?
The environment is super competitive. A second MBA is not encouraged once you're married and have kids etc. Looking at the economic cycle, if you graduate during a 'bust' - you're screwed.
Btw, if you're an outstanding candidate and know your stuff super well, past academics will matter only to an extent. However, echoes7's advice about it mattering in landing you a shortlist probably does carry some weight (which is unfortunate because some of the most talented bankers I have met have ridiculously lame acads)
...
Second MBA is a rare option definitely, but from what I've seen/heard, people only do it from an Ivy League B-school like MIT Sloan, Harvard, Wharton etc. Doing an MBA from 2 different Indian B-schools probably would not help you too much I guess. You will have great difficulties trying to convince job interviewers why exactly you had to do an MBA again and even while you're interviewing for the 2nd B-school, you will find it difficult to get in.
Great take... one mistake - Sloan is not Ivy. However, Cornell is
However, we're not one of the ivies which encourages applicants who already have an MBA.
@Jamiroquai: If i dont have have contacts with the I-bankers can you suggest how to go for off campus placements?
Jamiroquai SaysBtw, if you're an outstanding candidate and know your stuff super well, past academics will matter only to an extent. However, echoes7's advice about it mattering in landing you a shortlist probably does carry some weight (which is unfortunate because some of the most talented bankers I have met have ridiculously lame acads)
Yes, past acads should not matter a great deal, yet, speaking from 1st hand experience, they do place great stress on it during shortlisting. Else, you have to have some other excellent achievement in your CV to offset the bad acads for you to get a shortlist.
Great take... one mistake - Sloan is not Ivy. However, Cornell is
However, we're not one of the ivies which encourages applicants who already have an MBA.
Ah sorry, my bad
Okay, let me start with the fundamentals:
Investment Banking: The process by which money is raised. This money could be in the form of debt (loans, bonds) or equity (IPOs or Private Equity placements). This money may be used for financing the working capital, capital expenditures, dividend payouts, etc.This is what you would call "Execution".
Advisory, the process of advising client on structures and regulatory procedures with respect to raising money is also one of the things that comprises IB.
Balance Sheet: When used in the context of "xyz firm has balance sheet support" (in the simplest sense) means that the firm has the ability to lend money and has the amounts needed for the transaction. This is very important, because a large balance sheet lends credibility to the investment bank raising the money.
Bulge-Bracket (BB) Firms: Large, well-known and very well-respected firms operating in the upper end of the market. They usually engage in transactions that exceed Rs. 2,500 million. Bulge Brackets in India are not clearly defined but the internationals - JP Morgan, BofA-Merrill Lynch, SBI Caps, IL&FS; fit the description. Internationally, the well-known Bulge's are JP Morgan, BofA-Merrill, Citi, UBS, Credit Suisse, Barclays, et al
Boutique Firms: Firms operating in what is known as the SME (Small & Medium Enterprise) space. The transactions are usually smaller than the BB's but are still able to gather enough fees to survive. There are hundreds of boutique firms that clamour for fame in India - they are usually attached to securities broking firms and exist in an attempt to ensure that institutional clients have access to securities broking as well as corporate finance products under one roof.
Middle-Market Firms: Usually firms that operate with companies that have transaction sizes that fall in the gray zone between BB's and Boutique firms.
Back-Office: The part of the IB process which provides transaction, research, reconciliation and number-crunching support for the bank. They usually work out of KPOs and work on processes as complex as financial modelling. Hours are kind of fixed and not very demanding. Skill-set level is minimal compared to the rest of the firm. Pay is better than most places but nothing "Investment-banking"-like... Usually located in India or other developing countries with cheap labor and lots of smart people.
Middle-Office: Usually dealing in risk and having minimal client interaction. They ensure that the investment bank's risk and compliance requirements are satisfied. Hours are either the same as or somewhat worse than KPOs, but not by too much. Usually located physically in the same building as the investment banking front-office. Money is pretty decent and fixed component of the salary is slightly below the front-office.
Front-Office: Fee-generators. The "bankers" sit here - defined as the place with maximum client interaction. Fixed component is pretty okay - but what boggles the mind is the bonuses.
Analyst: Undergraduate level support for the front-office. Not to be confused with back-office, these guys are some of the best undergrad recruits on their campuses and are chosen for their ability to work like crazy. They usually spend 3 years before being "encouraged" to go to business school. Those asked to stay on are turned into Associates and do not require to go to business school. Analysts are not so popular in India; since MBAs come so cheap...
Associate: The post-MBA level bankers. The Associate designation is usually the start of the process to reach MD. They usually handle work on client interactions and manage the Analysts.
Investment Bankers (in India): Usually CA's or MBA's. They work in either debt raising, equity raising or structured finance (lending from their firm's balance sheet). Very rarely will you see a non-MBA / non-CA in this business, unless they've moved in laterally from a bank job.
Investment Bankers (in the US): Usually MBA graduates (there are some undergrads who move from Analyst directly to Associate after 3 years, but they're the best of the best).
Bro excellent..thank you so much !I have 1 query...please look into my profile and suggest me on an avg what profile i mayget if i do MBA in capital markets in NMIMS and MBA core in NMIMS / any other B school ( ranks b/w 12 to 20).. I have 3 yrs of work ex in IT industry...i guess in worst case i can get into IT / Consulting firms (deloitte, accenture types)..but in case i want to get into IB profiles ..usually what profiles ppl like me will be offered and in what kind of firms ?
A top-notch b-school has better professors, more competitive class mates and more successful alums. Those are critical factors in helping push you thru the door once you snag interviews. Snagging the interview means you must come from a solid school.
Banker bonus is tied to firm profitability. Bonuses are coming back in NY (have been great in Mumbai, I hear) and are shit in London (which is why the bankers there are leaving en masse to NY and HK).
I don't understand what relation prop trading has to IB??
Yeah, but then aren't they still are a part of I Banks ? All the DB global markets and stuff, they do trade apart from their M&A; divisions right. Ive heard its somewhat related to prop trading. The risks IBs take are lower and also the money is client's so it involves lot of hedging unlike some of the prop trading I used to do. )this is all what I heard from one of my friend who interned in a trading desk of a BB, please correct me if I am wrong)
As for my profile, I have major interviews left (ABC) next week. gave L&K;, not good! I used to trade equity futures, resigned last month. I want to be associated with a BB and that is one major reason I want an MBA. I have a good background but I am really bad when it comes to HR. I dont know how to tell them that MBA is what I need because they dont want me to go there and tell them that I am coming to you so that I can get a chance to send my resume to those banks!
Also, how is an IB different from M&A; consultancy, something like, lets say Rothschild.